Ep712: Tom Wall – If You Make Some Money, at Least Take Half off the Table

Andrew Stotz 00:02
Hello fellow risk takers and welcome to my worst investment ever stories of loss to keep you winning in our community we know that to win in investing, you must take risk but to win big, you've got to reduce it. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm on a mission to help 1 million people reduce risk in their lives to join me and go to my worst investment ever.com and sign up for the free weekly becoming better investor value investor newsletter, where I share how to reduce risk and create grow and protect your wealth. Fellow risk takers this is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz from a Stotz Academy, and I'm here with featured guests with Tom wall. Tom, are you ready to join the mission? Yes, I am seeing Andrew and you too. And you too. As my father always said, If we lived any further away, we would be closer, we're almost exactly on the other side of the world. You in the Boston area me in the Southeast Asia area in Bangkok, Thailand, I want to just introduce you to the audience so that they can get to know who you are and what you are doing. And so Tom holds a PhD in retirement income planning with original research on whole life as a fixed income alternative under the advisement of industry thought leaders. His focus on academics and selling from a place of integrity comes from a 20 year career of positioning whole life insurance and competing against its alternatives. Recently, he has published the book permission to spend maximize your retirement with the best kept secret in personal finance, starting in college as an award winning adviser with Northwestern Mutual before moving his practice to MassMutual. He subsequently grew his career in prominent home office sales and marketing leadership roles. Tom has been a well known storyteller at a nationwide perennial company conferences and firm meetings. Tom now coaches and consults with financial advisors, hosts the Whole Life Mastermind study group, and authors, multiple pieces of original thought leadership books and other content, my goodness Topher, take a minute and tell us about the unique value that you bring into this wonderful world.

Tom Wall 02:12
Well, thank you for that very kind introduction, Andrew, you know, I'm on a mission. As of a couple of years ago, I left that career as an advisor, and you know, basically a product expert for a big fortune 100, you know, home office and in the financial services space a couple years ago, I left and decided to go out on my own and kind of take my talents to individual advisors and their clients talking about what I think, as you heard in the subtitle of my book, what I think is the best kept secret in personal finance, you know, kind of the way you open the show talking about helping investors reduce risk, I really believe that if you can reduce the risk or even shift that elsewhere through other parties, what it does is it gives you permission to spend your other assets, invest more aggressively, and do all the things that, you know, the academics have proven over and over again, should pay off for you, as long as you can ride those waves. But without that, without that piece of your portfolio, it's pretty difficult to do that.

Andrew Stotz 03:04
And for the listeners out there that don't know what whole life insurance means. Can you explain it in simple terms?

Tom Wall 03:13
Yeah, so there's really two flavors of life. I mean, there's, there's an unlimited number of flavors of life insurance. But generally speaking, there's two categories, there's Term and Permanent. So the term is, you know, be die within 20 years, they pay out. And it's dirt cheap, because you're not going to. The other one is permanent life insurance, which pays out when you die, not if you die. So even if you live 60 years, it will pay out when you die. So as such, it tends to have a much higher premium. The feature of that product, generally speaking, is that it builds a guaranteed cash value that rises every single year. The only question is, how fast does the company enhance that growth, with their dividends, and most of these big old Mutual Life Insurance companies have been paying them for probably 150 years almost at this point. So those are kind of the two flavors. One, one can use, you know, the ladder can really be viewed almost as one of your investments, if you think about it that way, and alternative for cash and other safe stuff in your portfolio.

Andrew Stotz 04:06
And, you know, when I was born, my father opened a whole life insurance policy on me. I have no idea where he came up with the idea, but he thought it was a good idea. And I still pay 130 $30 a year for that my annual premium. And I'm just, you know, it was obviously set at a very small amount, because, you know, my dad didn't have much money when I was born. And also, you know, it just, you know, it was a long time ago that it was set. Now the cash value of that has risen over time as the firm has been reinvesting in investing that money as long as I'm paying the, you know, the what's it called the renew their premium. Yeah. But I'm just curious, like, what's the return that you would expect on a whole life policy that's held for long Due to time, is it? Is it an equity return? Is it a stock return? Is it somewhere in between? Or how would you think about what type of return someone's getting on that product.

Tom Wall 05:12
Um, it's really depends. But if you think about it over a very long period of time, we're talking decades and decades, you're gonna get a bond like return maybe slightly better than you would have gotten in bonds. And it's really, because if you think about the way the policy performs, you know, you're putting premium dollars into the insurance company's general investment account, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna reserve that money for decades to come, because they have to have that money available. When you die, it's, it's not an actuarial science thing, they're, they're actually going to, they know, they're gonna pay that money out if you buy a million dollar policy today, down the road. So generally speaking, they're investing in long term corporate bonds from the highest rated companies around the world. You know, there's government bonds in there, a lot of the big a lot of the big dividend paying Mutual Life Insurance companies will also own subsidiaries, so investments subsidiaries, or other types of insurance companies, which also add to the profitability. So you can kind of think of, you know, the performance on these contracts as during the long end of the yield curve. So as each year as the money goes into these corporations, they're investing in you know, and 20 year duration bonds get to get the highest yield, they can, because they don't need liquidity, they're not worried about actually, you know, being needing to sell those bonds, they're just gonna hold them to maturity, and keep getting those interest payments to support that base. So over time, it all kind of averages out. But it really depends. I mean, if you die, if you die young, that's a really nice return on your life insurance, you don't get to see it. But the longer that you live, the more it just kind of looks like a long term bond.

Andrew Stotz 06:41
And if somebody has a portfolio, let's say they got mainly stocks and some bonds, and what is the place? Or what is the the attributes of whole life insurance in relation to that portfolio? Like, how do you look at it?

Tom Wall 07:00
Well, so here's the thing. So if there's one, if there's one reason, and one big reason people don't buy whole life insurance, just throw it out there that the first couple of years, you don't really have much to show for what you've paid in, you pay them 1000s, or 10s of 1000s, or heck, even more, potentially, and there's almost nothing there. So all the pundits will say, why would you ever do that? Why would you ever put your money into a vehicle where the money's not there. And the reason is, you know, because you're buying death benefit, you're buying protection, you're protecting your family, you're protecting your business interests, and you're, you're you're essentially buying into an inevitable gain when you die. So if you have loved ones, there's a huge benefit to having that. But that's the catch the low early values were like that. For me, you know, I think my biggest policy I bought almost 15 years ago now. And now I'm way past all that now I've got more money in the policy than I paid in. Every time I make a contribution that year, the policy goes up by more than I contributed. I think it's growing at over 5% completely risk free right now and tax and tax list in the United States. There's no tax on the inside buildup of cash value. So for me, I haven't had money in an actual savings account for well over a decade, because why would I have cash values growing at over 5%? Tax listen riskless? Like why would I do that? So that piece, the other piece is if you think about it in terms of bonds, like I was just saying, if it's backed by a big bond portfolio, and that's kind of how the performance is generated. But through the contract, the company has guaranteed away all risk, which is absolutely present in bonds, especially the way interest rates are today. For me, that's also my bond portfolio is outside of, you know, my retirement account, things like that. But it allows me to be more aggressive with my retirement account in my other investments, because I know I have that stable, accessible. That's where it fits.

Andrew Stotz 08:42
It's a great point about an alternative to cash deposits. And there are some people that have the money in cash deposits, and they just are scared of other options. But here, you have an alternative for that. And as you say, there's a tax benefit of that. And the other thing that I'm hearing from you is that because of the long term nature of their investing, you can expect that they will be able to bear the risks that will lead to the higher returns in the bond portfolio. So if you were just measuring the performance of a bond portfolio that you would typically own, it's going to be a shorter maturity in almost all likelihood, compared to that one. And so over time, let's say you're gonna get an uptick in your return hopefully. Is that the way to look at it?

Tom Wall 09:36
Absolutely, yeah. I think you know, if for very wealthy folks, you know, unless you're one of the very wealthy folks, generally speaking, you do need liquidity. So you're investing in bond funds. You know, as you saw last year, when interest rates spike, especially off of an all time low, you're exposed to a lot of loss, technically speaking, so are the insurance companies I mean, if they were to sell these bonds on the open market, they would be selling them at a discount and be losing money. They just don't have to sell I mean, they have predictable cash flows of premiums coming in the door. And obviously, they're made, they're managing, managing their liabilities against that. And they have huge amounts of surplus like they have piles of cash on top of that, just to meet obligations. So yeah, over time it if you think about it, you know, like a bond ladder, if you will, you know, the concept of the bond ladder. Essentially, if anyone doesn't understand the concept of the bond ladder, it's essentially just you own a bucket of bonds. And you bought all of these bonds at different interest rate environments over time. And you can kind of think of it as your portfolio average, you know, the average all those interest rates together the coupon payments on those bonds, you're getting, these insurance companies have been haven't seen falling dividends for four decades now, because they've been buying bonds at lower and lower lower interest rates since the early 80s. We're probably on the other side of that now, though, because if you look at the prior 40 years, you know, from 1940, through 1980, you saw their dividend going up every single year as they as the average and higher and higher and higher interest rates. So it's an interesting point in time now, if we are in a rising interest rate environment, you know, for prolonged period, like we saw in the 60s and 70s. But life insurance actually participates positively in that, while historically bonds have suffered quite a great deal.

Andrew Stotz 11:10
I didn't understand about that. What's the relationship of the dividends of the insurance company in relation to the bond portfolio that they're managing, which is funding your eventual payout in your whole life policy?

Tom Wall 11:26
Yeah, so if you think about, you know, actuarial science and or actuarial school in 30 seconds, is, if you're going to issue a million dollar whole life policy, those companies are typically guaranteeing you a million dollars of cash value also at age 100. So it's essentially just discounted cash flow, it's, you know, what do I need to collect from this person over the next however many years, assuming that I'm going to earn between two and 4%, on that money, such that to a million dollars at the end of the day. So you could do that on a financial calculator, the actuarial school, you know, mortality and expense charges and all the things that company has to worry about. That's, that's the hard part. But the other part is just math. So every year that when they pay a dividend, and they've done it since civil war time, and when I say that I'm talking about all the big, Mutual's like Northwestern, or MassMutual, or guardian, or all these big American mutual companies, they've been doing it for a very long time. There's three components of the dividend. You know, one is mortality, basically, less people dying, then worst case scenario, there's there's expense, which is, you know, managing efficiently. But the biggest of all is probably over time is going to be the investment component, which essentially represents, if they made a 4% guarantee, and they're paying six, it represents the additional 2% interest that their general investment account is getting over with a guaranteed modern policy is gonna be guaranteed as low as 2%, which sounds bad, but actually, for a lot of reasons is good for the consumer, in terms of the amount of amount of money that can pay in. So that's where the interest rate comes in, essentially, they make a guarantee, they guarantee cash values will rise, they will, they will guarantee that million dollars happens at age 100. But with non guaranteed performance, you know, they're gonna outperform that. And that's kind of how you participate in the rolling long end of the yield curve, in their big old bond ladder that they're holding.

Andrew Stotz 13:12
It's an interesting point, too, about, you know, what happened when interest rates rose dramatically when the Fed, you know, kind of went crazy and Rose rates, basically, the value of the bond portfolios collapsed at the banks, and anybody holding bonds, technically, everything in theory is kind of mark to market, you want to think of things as being more to market and therefore, bond portfolios collapsed in value. And they've stayed collapse. I mean, it's not like the interest rates went back down. And so now, in the case of a bank, the big risks that a bank faces is that depositors say, I want my money back, and then oh, crap, an unrealized loss that I thought I could wait out, has now become a Realized loss. Whereas with an insurance company, there's no depositors coming in saying, Hey, give me my money back. And therefore, there's the funding source is super solid. And as a result of that, they're not forced to mark the market. And they can ride that out over time. And eventually, they've got long duration in their portfolios. So eventually, what will probably happen is that interest rates will come back down again, and then those portfolio values will probably rise again. Is that does that make sense?

Tom Wall 14:28
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And again, you can kind of think of the general investment account of these companies as a big income fund, like they don't really care about the fluctuation in the value of the fund. Obviously, they do, I'm simplifying. But it doesn't really matter to them because they have war chests of cash. You know, they have bonds coming due every year. They've got 10s of billions of dollars and new premium dollars coming in the door. that predictable cash flow of knowing premiums are coming in the door gives them a lot of a lot of comfort as well. And the reason and that's the reason you haven't seen a run on insurance companies because at the end of the day, this is financial stuff. Dirty for families. This is, you know, this is the last place you cash out this isn't this isn't meant to be accessible. As I say there's two forms of savings, there's their savings savings, which is the stuff you roll every year of your life. And then there's deferred spending, you're saving up for something. And traditional banks is typically where the deferred spending comes in, you're saving up for a down down payment on something or some major purchase.

Andrew Stotz 15:22
And last question about this, because I think it's, you know, it's an interesting topic, and for everybody to you know, learn more about it. One of the other questions I have you mentioned that there's tax benefits related to a whole life insurance policy, is that on the income that's on the growth that's happening, have the cash value, or what where's that? Where's that coming from?

Tom Wall 15:42
In the United States, at least, that's where I said, so. And I think this, this plays out for most of the throughout most of the world is, you know, the money's gonna go in after tax. So it's you've already paid income tax, and the money once it goes in, it's never taxed again. And that's because of a few different things. First of all, death benefits are always income tax free. So you know that that million dollars, or whatever the number is, at the end of my life will pass to my family totally income tax free. Along the way, that policy will build the cash value, which eventually will be more than you pay, and so eventually, there will be a gain. Those cash values grow on a tax deferred basis, meaning you don't pay any taxes as that growth occurs, just like any other kind of retirement account. The difference, though, is, generally speaking, with plans like that, if there is tax deferral, eventually, you're going to have to pay taxes on the gains with life insurance. That's also true, actually, if I cashed the policy out, you know, 30 years down the road, and I've got three times what I paid in there, that additional two times what I paid in there, would be taxed as ordinary income. But there's this special provision inside the life insurance, which is called a policy loan, which allows you to borrow against the policy, typically at similar rates to which it's growing. So if it's growing at five, you're typically borrowing against that around five. So borrowing your own money sounds blasphemous, like, why would I pay interest to borrow against my own money, but it's basically a wash, it's kind of like taking money out of the bank, you're getting 0% interest, while you're borrowing against an asset at the same rate that you're growing it at. It's effectively 0% interest. But what it allows you to do access to that additional growth, income tax free, because loans are not taxed by the IRS, this is a major advantage for a lot of people. And really, I think the mass affluent crowd, who feels the tax bite the most, you know, not the super wealthy and not the not Not, not the classes, it's really that upper middle class, those are the ones that are taking the most advantage of it. And that's, that's personally why I enjoy my portfolio so much.

Andrew Stotz 17:38
So in other words, you get access to the money that you've brought into the life insurance policy, in hopes you if you take that money out, in theory, you could invest it in a venture or into stocks or anything that could potentially earn a pretty high return. And then you can get out now in the life insurance policy, is it the case that your cash value is not growing? Because you've taken the cash out? And therefore, you're growing it you're taking responsibility for growing it once you've borrowed it? And then you put it back? You know, at some point, or is it not growing in value? When you taking the money out right?

Tom Wall 18:16
Now? No, it does. This is this is the secret this is what a lot of you do to research online, you'll see a lot of talking heads talking about this concept. It's every company is different. So I don't want to make statements about every company. So do your research. But generally speaking, some of the best companies you can do this with is if you have a policy, like mine, it's growing at like 5.3 or 5.4% per year right now based on where it's at in the contract. And I can borrow against it right now at about 5%. And that borrowing event does not impact the growth of the policy, it's almost like I have a policy and then I go across the street to Bank of America and take a loan and assign that policy as collateral to the to trade not affect each other. But these insurance companies are happy to be the bank to because if they're gonna get 5% on a loan to me against an asset that they're holding, there's zero credit risk, they don't when there's no default risk at all, to them. We're, you know, if you can get a risk was 5%. Who wouldn't make that deal right now. So they're happy to do that. So no, that's the is, you know, I so if I have a real estate investment, I can take a big loan, buy that real estate, and as the cash flow from that real estate comes in, I can replenish the loan, it can essentially there's a lot of people that call this infinite banking. I personally just in full disclosure, don't love that term. I think a lot of this stuff is mis sold, and people are preyed on with some of these concepts. So I'm careful not to be the Infinite Banking guy. But that's the concept and that's where a lot of people have this as an alternative to traditional banking.

Andrew Stotz 19:44
So tell us just before we get into the big question of the podcast, just tell us for those people that are interested in this, where should they go to learn more about what you're doing? Where should they go to get the book and all of that

Tom Wall 20:00
Yeah, so I mean, like I said, this is a, this is a widely held concept, this is not new. There's a lot of people out there that do this, I think buyer beware, you want people with credentials. I actually, I've worked my entire career with a lot of these folks who are very well versed in how to do this. So you can, I'm not one by the way. So this is not a, this is not a commercial for myself. But you can always reach out to me find me online, I'm on Tom box.com, you can reach out and I can definitely connect you with the right people to make sure that that was a properly designed system. My book permission to spend was actually more focused on the insurance piece than it was thinking about as a bond alternative, although the book does talk about that, you know, my mother, just one story, my mother died when I was 26 have lung cancer, and she and she and my father had just gotten into their mid 50s, making really good money, we're just about to travel the world. And after years of sacrifice, we're finally there. And then it was taken away. And then and over the course of my career, I've heard countless stories of this. And oftentimes, it's more so you know that you do make it to retirement, but it's not 30 years, you get five, or you get or you get 10, before the health issues take over and you can't travel the world you can't spend and traditional finance is all saying, you know, think about the 4% rule. For those familiar with that it basically says based on historical calculations in the United States 4% was kind of the safe number. And that's really a pathetic number. I mean, if you haven't got a million dollars, you can only spend 40,000 per year after taxes less than 100 bucks a day, that is not a wealthy retirement. And so I have my whole career I started thinking about, you know, are there strategies where we can not necessarily create outsized returns, you know, there's, that's, that's the unicorn everyone's chasing. But more so is are there strategies that we can use to push income to the earlier years of retirement to give people permission to spend and enjoy that which they spent decades accumulating, but still know that their family is taken care of, they're covered for long term care if they need to, there's some liquidity shock, they've got access to capital, and whole life insurance does all those things guarantee and for me, it guarantees my boys are going to receive a legacy that guarantees that my spouse is taken care of. So I can spend or even annuitize other assets, it's got a stable accessible source of cash that I can tap into for whenever I want. So if that unforeseen event happens, and what it'll really allow me to do is it'll allow me to invest more aggressively, you know, right before retirement, and during retirement, which every study ever done is shown, the more the more equity exposure you can have over time. You know, because you feel good elsewhere in your portfolio, the better off you're gonna do. So, my courses, my my, my talks, everything can be found in Tomball talks.com, or my book is in all formats on Amazon talks all about those strategies. And I, you know, I don't know the tax code across the globe. But no matter where you are, you know, this strategy, I think, is works and it's probably available to

Andrew Stotz 22:48
fantastic, we'll have that in the show notes for everybody. And now it's time to share your worst investment ever. And since no one goes into their worst investment thinking will be tell us a bit about the circumstances leading up to it then tell us your story.

Tom Wall 23:00
Oh, the circumstances I want to say was I actually forget the year 2017 2018 I get all my friend I have I got a couple of nerdy friends and then they start texting me about this thing called Bitcoin. And I had heard about it before so I had known about Bitcoin was one of those one of those kick yourself moments where I remember reading it about it and like Wired Magazine, you know, six or eight years earlier when it was worth a penny or something like that. And then I dismissed it because I couldn't find it anywhere. I couldn't buy it, I couldn't see it anywhere. So I said whatever. So I was I was around the time it was hitting around $2,000 pretty valid or something like that. And I was like, You got to do this, you got to do this. There's a groundswell going on online and, and all these all these forums, like, Whatever, I'll buy some. So I don't know, it wasn't a whole lot of money. I was five or 10 grand, I think I threw at it. And then it turned into a lot more than that, in short order went I think it hit $20,000 just within a year, that was good and made some money. And then of course, what goes up must come down. I came to and I went down for a while. Long story short, as the next wave happened, you know, I started to dive a little bit too late. But then the NFT crates happened and boy did I did I go well, there was one in particular I really believed and I bought it. And man it went I think I think it went 15 times my investment at that time. And I'm just sitting here bragging to my friends sending them screenshots of my accounts, you won't believe what happened. And of course, I sold those MFDs and moved it to safety, which was Bitcoin. And then boy did that fall, I lost over half the value in those games, just because I was riding high and I was just gonna let them ride and it was found money. And I think my lesson and my takeaway from that was, you know, those things do happen. And if you have the guts to throw some capital at good ideas or even just trendy ideas, you can make money, but a burden hand is absolutely worth doing the bush you know, if you make some money, sell, or at least take half off the table. I'll never I'll never make that mistake again. If I ever get those kinds of games in the future.

Andrew Stotz 24:57
Yeah, that's a it's a very important lesson, you know, and I think it's part of its understanding, like long term returns, you know, an understanding that stock market returns over the long run is somewhere between eight and 12%, depending on the the years that you pick the measurement period over, but let's just say 10%. And the average bond portfolio over that same long period of time is four to 5%. And so when you see that you're making 100% 200% 300%, and 500%, it's just that having that awareness to be able to trim some of that. And I've also, you know, seen in my in, in my experience, too, I'm good at trimming on the downside, I have stop losses in place for stuff. But when it comes to the upside, you know, it's so easy to let it go. And, you know, think back to that time, you know, people were talking about Bitcoin, a million Bitcoin 100,000. So it really is hard. And I think that the lesson from my side is that you've got to kind of set some, you know, some point and all you got to do is, the easiest way to do this is take 50% off the table, keep the other 50%. But take some action to take some off that's kind of what I would be. what, if you were to advise a young person who's getting into a similar situation? What would be your recommendation for them?

Tom Wall 26:25
No, I think that's great. I think there's no hard and fast rule, obviously. But I think yeah, if you if you make some gains, and take some off the table, it just there isn't there's strategies that say, if you make any gain, you know, take back your original investment, and now your whole and then you can let it ride or whatever you're comfortable with and your risk tolerance. You know, a big part of my work in my research was really around all, you know, what can you do on the safe side? How can you have your safe money not sitting in cash, or literally, like, sometimes literally dollar bills? How can you not have your money sitting in that growing along the way so that, you know, a piece of your portfolio is always growing, but also accessible, you know, retirement accounts tend to tight until 59 and a half in the US or other earlier ages elsewhere. If you can get those tax advantages, but don't have those limitations. You know, I know people that actually use these assets that I've been talking about for the last half hour as to invest at the bottom of COVID, you know, when the market was at its lowest, you know, they were they were buying stocks hand over fist because they knew the world would come back. And they've done very well with that. So I would say risk is okay, stupid investments are okay, as long as it's a appropriately small part of your portfolio. But to the extent you can find other prudent guaranteed arised assets in that portfolio feel a lot better doing it.

Andrew Stotz 27:36
So what's a resource either of yours or any others that you've come across in your life that you'd recommend to our listeners?

Tom Wall 27:45
A resource of mine? That's a good question. You know, I honestly, just the financial trades, I think I think they're all good. I shy away from, you know, some of the talking heads online, I'd say. Just, you know, the investment advisor trades, tends to be the best advisor today around by name, I think it's who comes out with that one, it's probably one of the best ones that I've come across the Journal of Financial Planning, you're gonna get peer reviewed academic articles versus people that are trying to sell you something. Those best resources do you want to dig in?

Andrew Stotz 28:18
Right? And last question, what's your number one goal for the next 12 months?

Tom Wall 28:23
To add value to as many people as possible and be the voice of reason in this space. You know, I think life insurance gets a bad rap because there's not I wouldn't say some people think they're unscrupulous. I think they're more uneducated advisors that are just started in the business, or they were just unfortunate to start with the wrong companies, or they just don't know how to talk about it, right. There's a lot of myths out there that gives this whole space a black eye, but it's also one of the time tested strategies that predates pretty much every other financial vehicle out there. And that's for a reason. It provides a lot of security and a lot of safety. And it's the cornerstone of my plan. So my goal is to go from reaching 1000s of people to to 10s, or even hundreds of 1000s of people in short order. Exciting, social. Yeah,

Andrew Stotz 29:07
it's exciting. Well, listeners, there you have it another story of laws to keep you winning. Remember, I'm on a mission to help 1 million people reduce risk in their lives. As we conclude, Tom, I want to thank you again for joining our mission and on behalf of a Stotz Academy, I hereby award you alumni status for turning your worst investment ever into your best teaching moment. Do you have any parting words for the audience?

Tom Wall 29:30
No, go out there, go out there and take those risks. Just make sure that you do it responsibly and take those games off the table when you get them.

Andrew Stotz 29:38
And that is a wrap on another great story to help us create, grow and protect our well fellow risk takers. Let's celebrate that today. We added one more person to our mission to help 1 million people reduce risk in their lives. This is your worst podcast Jose Andrew Stotz saying. I'll see you on the upside.