Ep740: Jerry Parker – Understand Your Investing Capabilities and Limitations

Andrew Stotz 00:02
Hello fellow risk takers, and welcome to my worst investment ever stories of loss to keep you winning. In our community. We know that to win in investing, you must take risks, but to win big, you've got to reduce it. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm on a mission to help 1 million people reduce risk in their lives. And I want to thank you for joining that admission today. Fellow risk takers, this is your worst podcast hosts Andrew Stotz, from a Stotz Academy, and I'm here with featured guest, Jerry Parker. Jerry, are you ready to join the mission?

Jerry Parker 00:39
I am, I'm very ready, all fired up.

Andrew Stotz 00:44
I've been preparing for this because I am interested in what you're doing. And I'm interested in the different aspects. And I also think that for my audience, there's, there's some real value in what you're doing. One of the things that I'm going to say before I introduce your bio, in your new shoe is that in the academic research, what we've learned that it's very hard to consistently beat the market almost every single way that we try to do that. It doesn't persist. But there's one strategy that seems to have some sort of persistence, and that is a strategy of momentum. And so Jerry is an expert on that Jerry started his trading career in 1983. That was when I graduated from high school in the Richard Dennis Tuttle program. He started Chesapeake capital in 1988. Chesapeake manages about $200 million in private funds, mutual funds, ETFs, and managed accounts. All of the trading is done using a trend following plus nothing approach. The funds are maximally diversified and include bond commodity and currency futures, stocks, crypto, and foreign exchange forwards. Jerry is active on Twitter, and Twitter spaces. You can see him at RJ Parker, J. Rs 09. And he does every morning every Friday morning, he does on Twitter spaces. I'll have links to his Twitter and other stuff in the show notes. Jerry, tell us about the unique value that you're bringing to this wonderful world?

Jerry Parker 02:29
Oh, well. The unique part really is the unique from the typical managed futures, CTA that uses trend following is we don't add anything to the trend following so it's trend following plus nothing. Although we are trend following everything that we can find liquid markets around the world exchange traded that add diversification to the portfolio. And one of those major markets that we trade is the stock market in the US stocks and European stocks. And that's very rare for a CTA to trade stocks. And they usually just trade the stock index futures in order to get that stock exposure. But we felt like we would get better diversification by choosing a large portfolio of equities, on purpose, choosing them to create this diversification. And then also, we're hunting these outlier trades and trying to find the big trends. And typically 10% of our trades are going to make all the money for us in any one year. And the rest will be sort of small or breakeven. And we're going to find more of these outliers, if we're trading these individual stocks, long and short versus trading an index. So mostly CTAs will market themselves as crisis alpha for equities and allocate a small percentage of your portion of your portfolio that contains stocks and bonds to manage futures. But we sort of said, well, let's give people have the option to trend follow the stocks themselves. So the stocks, they need some help. Every market that is out there needs to have a trailing stop and a stop loss, a place to get in and a place to get out. So you don't have these big draw downs. And let's just apply this wonderful trend following directly to equities. And so we think it's a very unique and it is a very unique product, and especially in the ETF format that we just came out with about three months ago.

Andrew Stotz 04:43
Yeah, and I think when I think about the people listening to this, there's two groups that I think would find this discussion. Interesting. The first is people who are just interesting and interested in trend following and they've been learning about it. They've been you know, trying to understand what I think you'll learn a lot in this discussion and learn a lot by following Jerry on Twitter. But also there's other, let's say, more institutional or family office that are managing a portfolio. And maybe they're managing that portfolio based upon, you know, they like value stocks, or maybe they're looking at quality growth or growth at a reasonable price. And those are, you know, different strategies that work sometimes sometimes they don't, but by being pure trend, following, as you say, trend following plus nothing, in theory, owning a portion of your strategy could provide benefits to that overall portfolio. Would that be correct in saying that? How would you, you know, talk about that?

Jerry Parker 05:49
I think so. Part of it is coming from our choices of stocks to trade. And then part of it is the trend following overlay, it's going to give a different type of performance. You know, sometimes trend following fails miserably. We're getting into the worst thing now. Yeah, so some I can remember, sometimes it just fails horribly, whenever there's a V bottom, you know, the CTAs kind of get in, and then all of a sudden, it goes down a little, but then it rallies like a COVID period, or a different periods where the market just sells off very quickly. And then the trend followers can barely get short. And then by the time they're short, it rallies back to new highs. So that's not going to work out that great in a trend following strategy. But sometimes that doesn't occur. And the CTA is really do add value, and they are able to get into stocks at a good period and then start taking profits when the trend in each individual stock starts to turn around, and to have the stop losses. So it is it can be a very different type of strategy overall. And you're not doubling up on your stocks when you add trend following stocks. But of course, our funds have half half of the portfolio was not stocks. So it's going to the whole Funds performance is going to look quite a bit different than what just about anything, really.

Andrew Stotz 07:16
And when you talk about, you know, the challenges of trend following during particular market periods, I presume that's what draws trend followers into blending in other strategies thinking, Okay, I've got to try to protect for that period. And how can I make sure you know, that type of thinking then draws them into add something to the trend following approach? Would that be correct? I mean, how do you see that?

Jerry Parker 07:44
Yeah, well, trend following is a very bumpy ride, you know, you're taking these small losses, maybe 60% of the trades are losers. And then you're just hoping and praying for these outlier trades, these big trends that are going to make all this money and then you got to hold on to them for a long time, you can't get out too quickly. They have a tendency to be volatile, and give back profit, or men try to shake you out of the trade and get you to get out quicker and take smaller profits. So people are always trying to figure out ways to minimize that volatility and that bumpiness. And we've chosen to do that by trading more and more markets and trying to do it that way. But a lot of CTAs do tre trend following plus a lot of other things. That different micro strategies that probably don't help very much in the long run, but they can definitely help smooth out the performance. In the short run, the trend following itself is going to be the heavy lifter, it's going to make all this money. And I do understand why other managers do I add in other strategies, even though we've chosen not to.

Andrew Stotz 08:58
And let's just define what trend following is, and what trend following is not maybe in your most simplest way of explaining, keeping in mind my mother's listening.

Jerry Parker 09:11
Well, essentially taking small losses, limit the losses to a small, smallish size and then letting profits run. So if it's a profit, you're going to handle that trade Much, much differently. You're going to be bold with it, you're not going to be eager to get out, you're going to sit with some volatility, and some profit give back. But if it's a loss, you're going to try to kill that loss pretty quickly. All of these parameters and ideas need to be vetted with some sort of back testing analysis to see what's actually worked in the past. You're going to use breakouts or you're going to use moving averages. What's your look back period going to be you know how long? What sort of trends are you after long term trends or short term trends? When I first started trading, we traded pretty short term And now we've, our average holding period is about a year. So we don't try to get in and out, we try to ride these really long term trends like the bond market, the short bonds that we've been in for a year or two. And that gets all the press these days. You just, they've been volatile. This past March, they had a tremendous rally, but you just try to come up with rules and, and methods that don't get you shaken out too quickly. And we were able to stay in almost all of those shorts. But sometimes it doesn't work as well as it did then. But I think that's trend following or nutshell you're buying if it starts going higher selling when it starts going lower. But you've got to have some specific rules and parameters to always use.

Andrew Stotz 10:47
And what's the level of turnover roughly in your portfolio annually?

Jerry Parker 10:55
Well, we like I said, We average about one trade per year. So we're probably going from long to short, almost every market, at least, you know, once per year.

Andrew Stotz 11:06
That seems like an incredibly long period of time for trend following when I would think you know that you would have said something much, much higher,

Jerry Parker 11:17
you wouldn't think that this long term approach would work very well. But the markets these days are very choppy. And there's so many people in the markets doing different types of trading, computer trading and relying upon, you know, certain types of styles and back testing. And so you'll get these nice trends, but they just have a tendency to be very choppy. So you want to allow have a methodology that stays in the market. And this is how we sort of get paid, we try to figure out, we want to stay in as long as we can, and maximize the potential in these big trends, and not get out too quickly. But then we don't want to stay too long, you know, because you're gonna have a big give back, possibly when the trend ends. So that's what we're sort of paid to do is to figure that out. And one way to do that is to trade multiple trend following strategies. So, you know, we have different entries and exits, in multiple different we call systems. And that helps with the diversification as well.

Andrew Stotz 12:24
Yeah, like the perfect dinner party guests. You get in there long enough to enjoy the ride. And you get out when the party starts turning.

Jerry Parker 12:35
You get emotional, you get greedy, you don't want to leave, that's when the trouble begins.

Andrew Stotz 12:40
And let me ask you what, what is the universe? If we were just looking at stocks? Are we talking about the top 100? Most liquid stocks in the world? Are we talking about 1000? Are we talking about 5000? You know, I know, for instance, Vanguard for those people that are listening, the Vanguard VT fund has about and it's getting close to 10,000 stocks now around the world, which you could say there's 10,000 stocks that are large enough and liquid enough to be in a global fund. They may not be large enough and liquid enough for trend following but I'm just curious, like, what is your universe from the stock perspective?

Jerry Parker 13:19
Well, basically, it is, you know, all the stocks, and we just have to whittle them down to the ones we want. But it's about 150. Stocks, a lot of commodity based stocks, but different in one of the weird things that CTAs do, and we certainly do is we choose the stocks strictly based upon liquidity and diversification. Note with without any, we don't really care how it's performed historically, whether it's been a big move or buy and hold, or whether the trend following systems have made money in the stock, we really don't care. We don't, we don't want to pay too much attention to the past performance of any of these markets. We think that they're all trend eventually. And you can't really predict the thing, these things about when and how it's going to trend. So it really is just seeking out companies that maybe have a commodity relationship, or we think that they're small enough, you know that they can have a big trend. Maybe just a company that's not well diversified. That would be very helpful. We don't want a company that has many different business lines. It's probably going to be better for a company that has one business line to get to get a big trade some fundamental, something fundamental will happen in this company and with supply and demand or shortages or who knows but then that may send it off on a big huge trend versus a company that's very diversified multiple lines of business. Really nothing is going to it's going to be really difficult to shock that and get a big trend, we put all these companies together, and we put them in with the currencies, commodities and interest rates, we're gonna get a lot of diversification. But we want to create that diversification. We don't want diversification from others, we want the big, the big, outlier trends.

Andrew Stotz 15:21
And I'm just curious if we could take a step back. And you know, you've had many, many years of experience in the market, you've got many years of experience doing specifically what you do. But I want to take a step back and think just briefly about the typical investor, the average fund manager, what would be your advice about the best risk management? You know, what's the best way to manage risk generally, not necessarily for your portfolio strategies?

Jerry Parker 15:52
Well, I think it is going to be pretty close to what we do. I think diversification is key. Real diversification. It's certainly key for trend following to trade all of these different markets and sectors. The s&p usually has like an 8% return, on average, or something like that. But it's has over 50% drawdown so it's pretty bad. But if I traded only the stocks, it probably wouldn't be much different. So only the currencies are only the commodities, you know, you want to have as much diversification as possible. You certainly want to take short trades. I mean, shorts are so powerful. Sometimes that's the only game in town, there's nothing else to do. You mentioned earlier, before we came on air, something about cash, no, cash is fine. But usually, if you can flip it around and go short, some of these markets, you're going to do pretty well. And it's going to give you some great diversification and profit opportunities. rules based Wow, what how important is having a rules having process having a systematic approach. So when all hell breaks loose, you can you know what to do, you may be one of your rules is to trade small or cut back, that can be very important to just simply go in during bad periods and trade smaller, reduce your Yeah, raise some cash reduce your, your positions, that is I think the ultimate risk management, it works every single time reducing your risk in that particular way. That was one of the first rules I learned in 1983. Cut back on those positions when you're in a bad situation. The markets are crazy, you know, kind of like COVID, March, February, March of COVID.

Andrew Stotz 17:43
Okay, so let me let me summarize that so far. So you're talking about reducing risk through number one, diversification? Number two, making short trades, that there's those times when the markets down and you've got an opportunity or that stock or that instruments down? You mentioned no cash is fine. But you know, if you could flip the script on that and say, How do I probably try to profit when the markets down? And then finally, you said rules based as in, you know, such as trade smaller, cut back? Is there anything else you'd add to that?

Jerry Parker 18:20
Oh, for sure, the heart and soul of trend following, take small losses. Don't ever let a small decision ruin your portfolio and your performance. And psychologically, you know, just get used to losing you know, I listen to a podcast the other day from a really famous trader. And he just he said, All I want to talk about is losing, losing, just lose, become a professional loser, to get out of those losing trades, and look at the your portfolio in terms of the trade and handling each one of these individual positions perfectly and properly. And that means taking small losses. And if you do at the end of the day, the accumulation of all those great decisions, what you'll be very happy with your portfolio. And then of course, the one mistake that everyone makes, it's kind of a wrist thing. And that's letting profits run. Because you need to maximize those profits, you're going to get into more bad situations on the losing side, if you don't handle the winning size side properly. So everybody gets afraid of winners, they get, they're gonna lose it back. This money belongs to me, I made it I don't want to lose it. But you have to be more willing to let those profits run. We always underestimate how far markets can go. And we should be very cowardly. With our losers. Everybody thinks the losers are going to come back. Just hold on to it. It's not a loss yet if I don't get out. And this is not what people say who want to live a long time in the markets. But yeah, it's really all about me. Am I that's exactly how I've approached it. I was an accountant. And so I have natural conservatism and naturally don't like losing money, and I want to be safe. And this is really what trend following can give you is tremendous safety with all those features I mentioned, but without hardly no compromise on the upside potential of making money.

Andrew Stotz 20:22
Right. Wow. Okay. There's a lot of great stuff. I got more questions, but I think we ought to move on to the main point of this podcast, which is, now it's time to share your worst investment ever. And since no one goes into their worst investment thinking it will be. Tell us a bit about the circumstances leading up to it, then tell us your story.

Jerry Parker 20:46
Well, I think I've had some bad investments before. And when I first started in the investment business, one of my mentors, really famous, wealthy person, he told me, you know, outside of trading, with all my investments, I don't think I ever made more than the treasury bill rate. And at that time, I didn't really know what he meant. But now I totally know exactly what he meant. Because I really haven't had much success outside of the trading, you know, in this sort of way, where I sort of always prefer, you know, transparent mark to market, something I can put into my brokerage account and trade, I know the value of it all the time, I can take that small loss. I can short it, if I want to, I can use the trend following I can build up this great diversified portfolio. But that's what I've preferred. That's what I've been good at. But certainly over the years, you know, I've had some stinker investments in real estate and gold. And one of the things that I just messed up on my real estate was, you know, overpaying and not being patient, I think, in fixing things up too much, you know, I would look at some of these investments and say, I want to make the Taj Mahal, this, I want to make this into something really great. And I just don't think that's the way to do it in real estate, it hasn't worked for me. And then patience, you know, I guess, as a trader, I have the patience that the system forces me to have getting in and getting out. But, you know, without a systematic approach in sort of normal investments, like homes and real estate, it's really been a struggle. And so I've sort of become more of an Airbnb Uber type person, where, when it comes to, you know, real life investments, or real estate and things, I like to rent it, or, you know, give it back to the person who owns it, or maybe like, instead of owning another beach house, go to a nice hotel somewhere. And I just understand totally, the cost, and the taxes and all of the upkeep and things that it takes to manage real estate and in have nice places. But I guess over time, I've realized sort of seeing that as a huge mistake. And probably the, you know, the thing that bothers me the most, it's just so freeing to be able to pull up your brokerage account and look inside and see them, the stocks or the trades you've done in the markets you have. And if you don't like them, you can sell it right away. And I think that that's the sort of luxury, that I really love that. And I just it was never been suited for, you know, maybe more traditional type investments.

Andrew Stotz 23:43
And what would be like, the most annoying moment of that, all those different things that you've mentioned? Where it's like, yeah, I'm going back to, you know, my trading?

Jerry Parker 23:55
Oh, well, I mean, I think that, that, you know, it has to be one of my, my homes that I bought, and in, you know, just trying to speculate in real estate, and trying to think that I knew what I was doing. And, you know, at some point in time, you, I would get in there, and I just would remember, you know that that cliche of you know, if you're at a poker table, and you don't know who the Patsy is, it's usually you. And so sometimes I thought I knew what I was doing in some of these real estate, and then it's just a humbling experience to sort of all of a sudden realize that, you know, you were the least experienced and the least knowledgeable and, you know, and that's exactly what's happening in your bank account. It's going down because of that.

Andrew Stotz 24:45
And how would you summarize the lessons that you've learned from all of these experiences?

Jerry Parker 24:52
Well, I think a good lesson is to understand what you're capable of and understand your limitations and be your afraid of situations you're unfamiliar with, and assume the worst, you know, I always have a place when I put a trend following trade on where I know I'll get out and take a small loss. And so if you can't do that in normal in a regular investment, then you need to really trade small and or invest small. I think that's one of the big keys.

Andrew Stotz 25:29
Um, yeah, maybe one of the takeaways reminds me in some ways about me, I mean, I, I came to Thailand with nothing in my pocket, basically. And that was 1992. I started working in the markets in 1993. And, you know, had a 20 year career. But I also had a business that we set up a factory with my best friend that we've been running now for 2829 years. And so I always had a need for cash for that business. That kept me conservative. And then I poked around in real estate, and I thought, No, not for me. And I sold what I had. And I love renting, I love traveling and going to nice places and knowing that I never have to go back if I don't want to. And as opposed to I you know, was originally many years ago thinking I was going to have a house in the countryside and you know, go there on the weekends, but man, I'm so happy I didn't bring that burden on myself. Good. So that the freeing and nowadays, you know, the problem we have in America, of course is everybody's incentivized to, to borrow and buy. And so it's very hard to fight against that. But in Thailand, there's not as much incentives to borrow and buy. And therefore, particularly, you know, homes and land and stuff, it's a little bit easier to resist. But I definitely would love to convey that message to listeners and viewers out there that, you know, do what feels right for you, but don't feel pushed into something just because everybody else is doing it. If you don't like owning or your concern or whatever, rent. Anything you would add to that?

Jerry Parker 27:16
Well, I just thought of something else that you know, when I was in my 20s. In college, I watched a TV show and they were talking about it. This was a period of high inflation. And they talked about gold and AI, and investing in gold. And they just wove this story about inflation and gold and prices going up. And I just sort of bought it and I thought this is the greatest thing ever, I can just own gold. So I would actually as a 20 year old, I was trying to buy gold. And I did. And I became so emotionally attached to it. And I just thought it was I just fell in love with it. And that and that has gotten me in trouble so often with investments is that you have a game plan, you have a discipline strategy. But when it comes time to get rid of it, you really hesitate to do it. You follow? I remember following other people, I remember Soros buying gold once, and he was really bullish, and I was buying it as well. And then later I heard he sold it and I was like heartbroken. Like what, why? So a cold having a cold mentality and no emotion is, you know, I think very important in investing, and but I guess as a young person, you know, you have to go through, you have to make these mistakes. And so here's the mistake that was you know, 40 years ago, and I still remember it.

Andrew Stotz 28:44
It's interesting, because as I listened to your history, it sounds like trend following provided a structure that you didn't have. And then when you found it, it's like, okay, this works for me.

Jerry Parker 28:59
Exactly. I mean, we always talk nowadays about educating investors and maybe we're not doing a good job on educating them but I think that it's mostly the trend following is just not very appealing. It has a lot of negative characteristics that it's counterintuitive people don't like it because when I first heard of trend following and when I was an accountant back in Richmond Virginia in my 20s I I learned such so little about it there was no internet there was no mentors. I loved it I thought it was the greatest thing in the world take small losses let profits run. I mean, how much better could that be? And then I heard about leverage and diversification and shorts and I was like sure that probably works well I'll not know about is all I've ever heard about his stocks but I can see you know, shorting or using trading other types of markets and using leverage. I was so totally open minded. And I just loved it and but you're pro I'll be right it probably just had more to it than I was a type of person who needed order and structure and objectivity. I thought maybe following prices was great. And it was an organization, you know, the world is so complex. And there's so many pieces of information that you get to make a decision on what to buy or sell, that I really did love. Just look at price, just look at the charts, the breakouts and the moving averages. And I really, really spoke to me.

Andrew Stotz 30:32
Yeah, when I was thinking about what you were saying, I was thinking, let the market do all the hard work, you know, the fundamental analysts are upgrading the price or the value and the price is starting to move. Well, that's what you're trading on in that particular case, possibly, because you're trading what's happening, you know, in the market. Now, let's think about a young person, you know, as they're, they're facing this world of financial opportunities. It's so broad, as you've said, and let's focus in not on the trend falling aspect, but on the worst investment ever, and the challenges that you've faced, what would be one action that you'd recommend that they take, you know, as they're starting looking at all these assets, and all these opportunities, that would help them avoid suffering the same fate?

Jerry Parker 31:23
Well, I think the most important thing, I think, is a mentor, and getting a mentor and working for someone, maybe not the highest salary, maybe not exactly the greatest, but a great mentor in a field that you're passionate about, and learn from them. And that's what I did. But another thing, I was ready, I was prepared. As much as I could have been to grab a hold of that opportunity. No one should ever expect to have the opportunity that I had to get the job that I did with these genius people who taught me everything I needed to know about trading. But when I went up for the interview, I, they hired me because I had done a lot of studying. And I had a lot of knowledge. So you need to be ready for a big break. And maybe your break won't be as big as mine. But I wouldn't have gotten it if I hadn't been ready. But it definitely cemented in my mind how important it is that what you even after you graduate from college, or you've have experience, continue to find that mentor who can guide you and lead you and really put you many, many steps ahead of where you would have been. Because I don't know if I could have ever figured, you know, all of this out on my own. I like wakes me up at night sometimes when I think about it like, what if I hadn't have gone to Chicago or answered that ad in the Wall Street Journal? Where would I be today? You know, you got to get these breaks in life. And you have to maximize them to lab wrote this book. And I forgot the name of it now. But in this book, he says

Andrew Stotz 33:11
fragile or Fooled By Randomness or Black Swan.

Jerry Parker 33:13
Yeah, the Black Swan. He says one of the most important things to do is to go to cocktail parties in Manhattan. And what he means is settle up next to really smart people and get their coffee, if you have to do anything to be with them, you'd be next to them. And I should have kept going with that because I didn't spend enough time with Richard Dennis and Bill Eckhart. I only had four years for that program. And so I should have begged to stay or maybe gone somewhere else and found someone else who could you know, maybe teach me more about equities and stocks and always been ahead of the game or trend following equities that I ended up being because I didn't trade those. In Chicago, we just traded the futures markets.

Andrew Stotz 34:04
Right. So what's a resource that you'd recommend for our listeners?

Jerry Parker 34:10
Oh, I would recommend what I do, which is find people on Twitter and subjects you're interested in investments that you're interested in, they're out there, Twitter's wonderful. It's fantastic. You can wade through the crap and find some good people who will tell you way too many cuts sequence and then podcasts and books. But mainly podcasts for me are interviews. I love the interviews of traders and investors. The famous traders and investors they tell way too many stories and we give you way too much information and things you can't learn in college. So I read a lot and listen and watch a lot of podcast to try to pick up little bits and pieces even at my age still trying to learn Learn from others and copy others. I'm a world class copier.

Andrew Stotz 35:04
And for the listeners out there, you can listen to episode 707, which was my discussion with Jack Swagger, who basically interview all of the some of the best traders out there. And that was a great discussion. I think, you know, it's great advice for sure that there's so much out there compared to well, in the old days, let's say, so last question, what's your number one goal for the next 12 months?

Jerry Parker 35:31
Wow. That's a good one. You know, stay disciplined, keep doing what I'm doing. And not give it not not a panic. You know, we've had 2021 22, we had three great years this year is not as great. And keep improving. You know, every day, I'm in there working to make the portfolio better. And I just love what I do. People ask me if you're going to retire. I don't think I'll retire because I just have too much fun. And I a long time ago, I stopped doing things that weren't fun for me. And so I definitely don't want to do that anymore. And yeah, so I don't know, it's not a good answer. But I have a process driven person. So I think just continuing to do that. And, and good things happen when you follow the rules, and you follow your rules and use try to systematize every element of your life, diet fitness. But obviously, the most important thing, honestly, for me in the future is hanging out with my grandkids more. And that'd be Yeah, that's No, it'd be really nice to do that.

Andrew Stotz 36:50
Well, listeners, there you have it, another story of loss to keep you winning. Remember, I'm on a mission to help 1 million people reduce risk in their lives. As we conclude, Jerry, I want to thank you again for joining our mission and on behalf of a Science Academy, I hereby award you alumni status for turning your worst investment ever into your best teaching moment. Do you have any parting words for the audience?

Jerry Parker 37:15
Thank you for having me. And I'm gonna go back and listen to some of your old podcast as well. I think those Jack Swagger books are awesome.

Andrew Stotz 37:24
And amazing. That's a wrap on another great story to help us create, grow and protect our well fellow risk takers. Let's celebrate that today. We added one more person to our mission to help 1 million people reduce risk in their lives. This is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz saying. I'll see you on the upside.