Ep725: Tania Reif – You Can Be Right and Lose Money

Andrew Stotz 00:02
Hello fellow risk takers and welcome to my worst investment ever stories of loss to keep you winning in our community. We know that to win in investing, you must take risks but to win big, you've got to reduce it. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm on a mission to help 1 million people reduce risk in their lives. Fellow risk takers this is your words podcast host Andrew Stotz and I'm here with featured guest, Tania Reif. Tanya, are you ready to join the mission? Absolutely. So let's kick it off. I want to introduce you to the audience. Tania is the founder and CIO of center digital assets prior to a cryptocurrency focus. She built her investment pedigree at top macro hedge funds, including Soros Fund Management Laurieann capitals sit it down and alpha dime Asset Management. She was profiled in the 50 leading women in hedge funds 2017 survey by the hedge fund journal. Her career spans public policy beginnings at the IMF, and experience in the banking industry at Citigroup's economic and market analysis team. She holds a PhD in economics with distinction from Columbia University where she earned the Jagdish Bhagwati international economics Award for her work in currency dynamics. Tania, take a minute and tell us about the unique value that you are bringing to this wonderful world.

Tania Reif 01:35
Well, thanks for having me here. It's a lot of fun to participate. So I think I have a pretty unique story. I grew up in Venezuela, and that is a country that has had terrible economic implosion, and most of the adjustment valve over the years that the government has used to help stabilize its macroeconomic imbalance. And its fiscal imbalance has been through the exchange rate. So my country has gone through really devastating currency crisis over the years. Really what I'm talking about is, as you guys know, in Asia, but you know, people in, in Africa and in Zimbabwe, in Nigeria, in Egypt, in Lebanon, in Argentina, all over the world, in a lot of emerging market countries, we have lived through this, we have this big currency dislocations with 100% 200%, depreciation of your local currency, in a matter of weeks, sometimes even less. And that proves very traumatic. It was certainly traumatic for me growing up. So I have a very visceral understanding of what that feels like for my immediate family, for my friends for my country. And eventually, that led me to study economics to study currency crisis, and eventually to trade to work both in the public sector and in the private sector and to trade currencies and right now has led me to really submerge myself in the world of cryptocurrencies and building the business that I am. Because I think my whole life has been around currency crises and trying to think about them, prevent them, trade around them, and survive them.

Andrew Stotz 03:23
And when you're talking about the types of crisis that you're talking about, it's like, I mean, absolute disaster, even in the Asian financial crisis, which was started in Thailand in 1997. Basically, our currency was fixed at 25 to the dollar, and by the end of the year, so it was middle of the year, we had the crisis. By the end of the year, we were at about 56 or 58. Bond to the dollar. And But slowly, that started to come back. And we never got back to 25 baht to the dollar. But let's say we've been in 28 to 35. Whereas the type of currency collapse that you're talking about, and you've talked about Venezuela, you mentioned, you know, Zimbabwe, you've mentioned Egypt, Argentina, I think you mentioned Nigeria, these are like collapses to things don't come back from and I just wondered like, how does a country survive that because already in Thailand, when I experienced that collapse, it was already brutal, and economic growth collapse by 11%. In 1990 100 countries survive how do people survive?

Tania Reif 04:34
Absolutely. So there it is, it's really devastating. growth tends to collapse like it did in Asia in the mid 90s. And there is really a distinction between the country and the people you see, like what happens is a lot of the time a big depreciation, depending on the country but let's say you stick my country as an example in a lot of these emerging markets, you know, Nigeria, Argentina, etc. I mean, These are commodity exporters. That's not the case in Asia, of course. But just to give you an example that I think is, you know, makes it quick to understand, my country's just very simple. We export oil, and we import everything else. But the government revenues are in dollars, because they are the ones exporting oil and all their expenses are in local currency. So when you have a big currency depreciation, the fiscal imbalance suddenly balances because their revenues are now worth a lot more than their expenses. So what happens is, once you have this big depreciation, the balance of payments, the external balance looks better. So experts look better relative to imports, because now everything all the imports are very important, very expensive for people. And the fiscal balances are certainly better. So the country as the sovereign survives, and us better, I mean, at least temporarily, they have a boost in their fiscal imbalances. But the people that consume goods that are often imported, that have big passed through form of currency depreciate depreciation to inflation, they do a lot worse. So they do suffer their living standards plummet, in many cases, you know, for a very, very long period of time, and in my country, actually, we've had, you know, really catastrophic situations of famines of people actually dying, because they don't have access to proper medicine, to proper food. So it's actually a really devastating adjustment. So it's an adjustment that the country eventually has to make, if the, you know, for the sovereign to survive and be viable. I think, you know, we did a deeper conversation, we can argue whether there are better ways to make that adjustment. But for the people, it's devastating. It's absolutely that devastating. And a lot of them actually don't survive, even though the country you know, chugs along. So it's it is it is really a very traumatic experience, and anybody that has lived through that does not forget, and that's why I say, the people in countries like mine, we are all, you know, expert, currency traders, you know, taxi driver in my, in my home countries, is an effects trader. And I think that's true for a lot of countries that have found themselves in similar situations.

Andrew Stotz 07:18
Yeah, that's a good point that you Your country is a commodity exporter, which means that you got something that's just actually, you know, now bringing you more dollars relative to the local currency. And in Thailand, as an example, we weren't a commodity exporter, we were a product exporter. And the result was, of course, our products look cheaper in the market. But, and then, and also tourism was cheaper. And so there was, you know, a recovery that was happening, but you know, it's interesting. Yeah.

Tania Reif 07:52
So each case is different. And that's why, you know, we can't really fully generalize, there's different kinds of mismatches in the, in the financial sector, in the case of Thailand, and you know, there are other reasons why these things happen. But when they do happen, what is important to remember is that for the layman, for the person within the country, it's really devastating, because that there is a huge pass through to inflation, and, you know, their living standards just plummet immediately. Now, in the aftermath, countries that are able to take advantage of the cheaper changes to export do much better than countries that have an inelastic export, and things like that.

Andrew Stotz 08:31
Yeah. And the last thing I would mention on is just the idea that you're talking about devastating impact. And no matter what the shock is, I mean, for maybe 100 million people, the estimates are 75 to 100 million people were pushed into poverty as a result of global lockdowns. And that's a devastating impact that will, you know, it's very hard to get out of poverty once you've gotten knocked back down. And I know, you know, in my own businesses, that we got knocked back pretty hard. And so, you know, devastating impacts is what we want to try to avoid in this world, hopefully, that we don't have as many of them. You know, I just wanted to ask one of the questions, since you're a you've got so much experience in the crypto space. One of the things that was the promise of crypto was that it was going to be able to get people it was a decentralized thing that was going to get people who are kind of away from the control of the US government. And you know, it was going to be peer to peer and therefore, you know, not just US government, it could be another government, like some people say, Okay, well, the Myanmar government is very repressive, and crypto would allow people to get around that. But one of my concerns is that you'd see that the US government in particular, but let's just say Western governments are doing everything they can to try to control the off ramps and the on ramps and all of this different stuff. Is it you know, where do we end up? Do you think five or 10 years from now is it just become control by governments or how does that work?

Tania Reif 10:02
So I think we have to understand what we mean by control. So the idea of crypto is not to be a parallel system, even though you may hear that, you know, somewhere, but but if you look at this seriously, the idea is not to be outside governments, you know, like, you know, some kind of hidden black market, you know, place where people transact, that is not the idea. What you have with cryptocurrency is that the cryptography allows you to have, if you will, digital property rights, and what that allows you to do to hold these cryptocurrencies in self custody outside the regular banking system, and gives you let's talk about Bitcoin, and I'm gonna talk about Bitcoin, just to clarify for your audience, because cryptocurrencies is very broad term, and a lot of this what we call crypto, it's a bucket of many, many, many different things. Some things that are more centralized, some that are more decentralized, some that are proof of work somewhere that are proof of stake some there are governance token, some, so it's, they're all very different to each other. So in order to have this kind of conversation, most people but they have in the back of their head is Bitcoin. So I'm going to talk in this conversation about Bitcoin. So we, so we're on the same page. So when you come to something like Bitcoin, you have almost digital property rights, in that you can hold this you can cause to the outside the banking system, you can transfer it, you can do it peer to peer, if you'd like, you can use an exchange that could be decentralized or centralized. And it can exist in parallel to the, to any government, it's like a digital commodity. So just as you hold gold, you can hold Bitcoin, and you may, you know, like the fact that there's digital scarcity, just like there is fiscal scarcity in gold. And you may think that that is shielding you from potential monetary push inflation. So in that kind of world, you're not looking to replace, say, the US dollar with Bitcoin is just exist just like gold, it's a parallel place where you may want to diversify your savings, for example, your investments or however you want to think about it, now, because it sits outside the banking system, then you can transact with it. And you are independent from banking troubles, like we saw in March this year. The other reason why it's not controlled by the US government, or by any government is because just like a commodity, just like there is no government that controls the supply of gold, there is no government that controls the supply of Bitcoin. So in that sense, the government doesn't control it now. But that doesn't mean that if you want to transact, you know, to one from Bitcoin, and you want to use an exchange that is based in the US or whichever country, it's based, that you're going to exist outside the legal system. That's not the case. In fact, I think those of us that want crypto to be formalized and institutionalized, welcome the fact that we have a constructive regulation that allows us to have Fiat on and off ramps, and so we can, you know, work with the current system, to have the opportunity to use crypto when we want and how we want it. But in the sense that there is nobody that controls the supply of how much Bitcoins are in the system, and it's something that is outside the banking system, in that sense, it's separate than your traditional fiat currencies.

Andrew Stotz 13:42
That's a great explanation. In particular, the idea that, you know, it's been hard enough to get politicians to stop spending, you know, like they just keep spending and printing. And so with, with Bitcoin as an example, as you say, let's forget about all the other ones for right now. But for this particular one, no, there is no centralized control of hey, let's print some more.

Tania Reif 14:07
Exactly, exactly. So you have digital scarcity. And in that that is what may make this attractive in a world where you see, say, the budget deficits increasing in time, that increasing in time, you may be concerned that that's going to result in debasement of the currency, even in the best run central bank in the world, because we were talking about, you know, the Venezuelans and you know, and a lot of these other, you know, Argentinians, and, you know, Lebanon and all of these other places where you may be concerned whether the central bank is run properly, and then people would say, oh, you know, yes, but that's not going to happen in the US. But yet, even in US pristine, properly, perfectly run central bank, you still have a problem that you have fiscal deficits and debts that are increasing worldwide, and central bank or Federal Reserve whose objective is to maximize the well being of the collective of society, and that may not be aligned with what maximizes the appreciation of your assets. So, if what is best for society is to have, say, lower interest rates and injection of liquidity, because say we find ourselves in a recession or in a pandemic, or something like that, that will debase the currency or dilute the value of the fiat currency relative to something that is scarce, such as Bitcoin, and such as anything else that is squares that people may invest in any other store value art, gold we talked about. So Bitcoin is just one more option that happens to be, you know, easily transferable and easy, easy to custody outside the banking system. So that's why it's particularly attractive in my view,

Andrew Stotz 15:50
well, it's great to talk to an expert like yourself, because I'm not an expert in that space. But I'm observing it and watching what's going on. I remember, this just reminds me when I was in university many years ago in the US, and I was constantly pounding away, you know, government spending is out of control. Now, this was 1988, when I was standing up and debating people to say, we got to stop government from spending, I would have never have guessed, it would have gotten to this point. But you know, the value of a scarce digital asset or an alternative to being in US dollar, I think grows every day, as we see, you know, what's happening in the US in particular, with printing money, it's incredible.

Tania Reif 16:38
I mean, just the US has just a lot of liabilities, you know, projected liabilities in time, and it's going to be hard to, you know, to contain that, that spending and avoid, I mean, according to their own projections, that that's likely to increase over time. So, so I mean, things, things can change. But it's certainly a concern.

Andrew Stotz 16:59
It's a big concern. Well, for those of us outside of the US, we're a little bit less concerned about that, because we are in other currencies, and we care about what happens with our currencies relative to the US. But that's a story for

Tania Reif 17:13
pitchers, which is equally, you know, the US is actually a relatively well run economy. So for a lot of other emerging markets, you know, even a lot of European I mean, there are plenty of other challenges for their fiat currencies as well.

Andrew Stotz 17:27
Well, I would, you know, one of the things that's interesting about Asia that I'm a big proponent of is being careful with saving and spending. Japan, of course, went out of control with their government borrowing. But if I look at Asian markets around, you know, over the past 20 years, they've definitely been careful about debt, at the government level in countries like Thailand, have legislation that they can't go above a certain amount of debt relative to GDP. And so that's interesting. And then also during the COVID time, many countries like Thailand as an example, you know, simply couldn't go out and print a lot of money to distribute to people because it would have immediately devalued their currency. And so, you know, there was a free market constraint to some extent, you know, who knows where it goes, but I mean,

Tania Reif 18:22
it is tricky. Obviously, it's for a longer conversation. But in my view, just you know, to keep it short, I think that we're Asia has to be concerned about, you know, these days is particularly China, and China's currency, because China's balance of payments has been deteriorating over time. And they already have capital controls. So, I think the fact that capital has been, the balance payments has continued to deteriorate despite that, and there is pressure on the currency, and now they have low growth and concerns in their property sector that will incentivize them to stimulate that will also put more pressure on the currency. And if the Chinese currency depreciates that is likely to put pressure on the rest of Asian currencies as well.

Andrew Stotz 19:14
Yeah, it's a good point, because there's also a lot of government debt, you know, massive amount of debt now in China after, you know, years of pumping the economy. And so that says, look at that for just a grip before we get weak. We got so much to talk about before we even got into this story. But you raise this point, I think it's good for our listeners, just to keep it in mind that it's very possible that in the next, you know, 135 years, the Chinese currency could devalue massively. And to adjust possibility. Yep, to adjust to its situation. And then what does that mean for the rest of Asia? Well, first of all, it means for many, most of the Asian countries, they're not going to devalue to the extent that China does so it's probably not going to be a competitive devaluation. To that extent, which makes products coming out of countries like Thailand, much more expensive in the export markets as an example. And it also makes a foreign direct investment into countries like Thailand as an example, maybe relatively less attractive, although you could say foreign direct investment into China if the currency devalues has other other issues that are related to political issues and whatever. But it is a great reminder to just be thinking that it is possible that we see a big devaluation in the Chinese currency over time.

Tania Reif 20:34
And you know, I haven't I mean, a bit since I've been doing crypto, I haven't been looking at places like Thailand as closely. But if I remember correctly, Thailand's balance of payments was actually supported by a lot of tourism from China. So if you have a big devaluation in China, then that certainly will affect Thailand,

Andrew Stotz 20:51
because they'll have the currency that they have is going to be worth a lot less than not going to travel as much, they're not going to buy as much. And so yes, Thailand has got 40 million in peak of tourists, and probably 20 million of those who are Chinese over the last, you know, I don't know, three to five years. So it definitely is an exposure. Well, my goodness, so much wealth of knowledge that you've got, and I appreciate you taking the time to share it. And now it's time to share your worst investment ever. And since no one goes into their worst investment thinking it will be. Tell us a bit about the circumstances leading up to an intelligent story.

Tania Reif 21:26
Yeah, I think it's actually a great podcast idea, because I think of this, you know, thinking about these things are very useful. And I think anybody that has been in the investment world for a while has plenty of war stories about their bad investments, and we all have them. But what I think makes sense, what I thought about sharing with you today is the investments that feel the worst to me. And you know, sometimes we make decisions, and we're wrong. But to me, what is really, really, really painful is when I lose money, and I'm right. Those are really painful. And you don't think about that before getting into investment world, you think I just have to get it right. And if I'm right, I'm going to make money. Well, I, you know, I'm sorry to tell you that's not the case, you actually can be right and lose money. And so what is there are various reasons for that to happen. But I think the main reason, at least in my experience, is when you are funnily enough, too early to a trade. And, you know, before getting into investment, I never thought that I thought, you know, I have to beat the market. So I need to, before anybody else realizes I need to come up with an insight, an idea or something before, you know, it's consensus, and then I'm going to make money. Well, it turns out that there's a lot of tactical considerations on you know, when to enter that trade. And that's why timing is important. Now, timing in the sense, you're not going to time exactly the day, the you know, the trade goes in your direction, but you have to have a general sense of when are the circumstances around your idea, you know, ready for the idea to take place. So to run and for you to have the appropriate hedges in place to have the directional view in place, and to actually be able to ride with it. And what comes to mind is, I had a very good model to trade currencies that had worked for many, many years. And then in 2016 1718, it started to wobble. And I had I mean, around that time, I had a bunch of episodes where I had put a trade on exchange rates, and it just wouldn't go my way, or it would take longer. And in this particular case, I'm thinking of the end of 2017, early 2018, when I thought the dollar should be strong, and it should rally. And actually the dollar tanked well into January 2018. And it only started rallying, and then he had a fantastic rally, but like three or four months later, but by that time, you know, I had positioned myself, you know, such that I had to take chips off the table. And then I wasn't able to, to really profit from my idea that ended up playing out a few months later. And the reason why that happens, I think is because we rely on models to help us understand the world to help us predict what we think is going to happen to give us idea and to ideas and to and to trade the fundamentals. But it turns out that these models are often based on past data and the world continues to change. And you know, it's changing all the time. So I think what is important is to stay humble, and when things are not working not good. On your way to take a step back, reassess what you've been doing, reassess, whether you're missing sample, your model is missing something where there is a variable that is new and important, and you're just not taking into account and then just be more careful with the sizing of your positions and so on. In my case, I mean, there are many things that we can talk about in that period. But I think, for example, one of the important things is to I was my modeling was very focused on interest rates and interest rate differentials. And in time, what became more and more important, was the ins and outs of liquidity flows that have become just be supremely important. As of recent years, and you actually had a guest, Michael Howell, which I follow closely on liquidity, because these have, have actually become very, very important for people that like us that are trading currencies. At the time, actually, what had happened is that what everybody follows today, which is the TGA account, the Treasury general account, if you look at a historical time series, that had almost zero importance of fluctuations, up until 2016, I did not at all, I wasn't even looking at it, it was like nowhere to be seen, it was like literally like, you know, you can just, you know, put out a graph, it's, you know, public, it's in the Federal Reserve, it's like flat, and then it starts having these huge fluctuations of billions of dollars in and out of the system in a matter of months. And that, of course, because it's in dollars, and it's the TGA in the Fed, it's affecting the dollar exchange rate, in a big way, of course, with some lags, and we can go into the details, but I wasn't taking that into account. And it took me a while to realize, you know, what, you know, out of all the noise and all the other things that were happening, this was actually a key variable that I ended up having to incorporate, you know, a few years later. Now, of course, I watch very closely, together with many other things. But at the time, because it was new, and it was a new big variable that was like, you know, switching the shift the system around, I didn't have it, and yet I was, you know, I was steadfast and saying, I'm gonna, you know, stick to my analysis, and my fundamental would go over it again, and again, my reasoning and everything seemed, seemed great. And it turns out, there was an important variable that I was missing. So, lesson learned. And I think we all need to, you know, stay humble, make sure that things like that we are, you know, taking them into account, then, you know, once you know, the stage is ready, maybe your idea based on fundamentals, and so on can actually play out once all these other considerations are out of the horizon.

Andrew Stotz 27:55
It's such a good story, because it has so many different factors to it. The first one is that when you build a model, I mean, part of the key successful model is that you're not changing it all the time. Right? You're trying to build something that can carry you through difficult times that you can rely on? And say, No, I'm gonna stick with it, because it's worked. And it brings up this whole challenge of at what point? Do you change a model?

Tania Reif 28:24
Yeah, you have to continuously reassess what you're relying on. And, you know, looking through it, I mean, and that's why I actually the style of trading that I like, and that I running in my current fund, I called quantamental. But it's not a systematic strategy. What it is, is a strategy that relies on quantitative tools. And a lot of models that we look at, we look at more than one wall, of course, we're looking at many things. But at the end, the decision is discretionary. Because there are things the model doesn't know. And that is specially important in the crypto world. Because, of course, you know, we have a lot of ideas and credit events happening all the time from regulatory events. Obviously, we had this fraud last year, had all these things. So you have to have your eyes wide open, you have to continue to vet these things. You have to you know, use the tools that you have built over the years, but just be you know, make sure that you are assessing them and reassessing and making sure you make decisions in my case in a discretionary way to allow me to avoid getting into trouble.

Andrew Stotz 29:38
Yeah, and the other things that it reminds me of Michael Howell is great, obviously for you know, his liquidity discussions. And one of the things is that there's after you've been through something like that there's always some guy, man or woman who like totally knew that. You know that they would focus on that one thing, anything And how did I miss that? You know, and it just so it's so frustrating because you can't be on top of everything in the financial world. And so,

Tania Reif 30:10
in the example that I gave you what happened? I think actually, the TJ situations were actually new. I mean, this, you know, like I said, I mean, this this, this wasn't even a thing. Before, before, before 2016. But what I think there were guys that did know, that is the importance, the increasing importance of liquidity in the system. And given that that was an important variable to look at within the liquidity picture. It's something that Yeah, I mean, people that were looking at that pretty closely must have had a feel for that earlier than I did. So.

Andrew Stotz 30:52
Yeah. And another guest, Daniel DiMartino. Booth, talks about, you know, don't fight the flow. And that raises a whole nother aspect that markets are so much influence now that debts very high, and the Fed and the US government, I mean, it just, they're just the massive actor that you know, if you don't call that, right, it doesn't matter what you've got, right? on a micro level, if you don't call that macro. It can, it can destroy you. So let's now think about, you know, a young person who's, you know, building their models, and they're doing their thing, and they're doing like you and I did as we were younger, and we're confident in what we're doing. And we're building that confidence over time. So based upon what you've learned from this, and what you've continued to learn, what's one action that you would recommend that they take to avoid suffering? The same fate?

Tania Reif 31:50
Oh, I, like I said, just stay humble. You know, reassess your use models, use the tools that, you know, that's important, obviously. But make sure you know what you're using, and make sure to reassess, and rethink, and, you know, size your positions accordingly. If things are not going your way, you know, stay humble, you know, take a step back, have a smaller size until you can, you know, understand what's happening, you know, that I think I think it's important to, you know, to be careful, and you know, avoid that temptation to just double down because you're so convinced that you're right, you know, more like, let's, let's, let's take a step back and make sure we understand what's happening.

Andrew Stotz 32:41
Page advice. So now, what's a resource that you'd recommend for our audience of your own or any others that come to mind?

Tania Reif 32:50
Well, actually, I think I don't actually have a resource for trading. But I would recommend Michael Howell for liquidity. I think he has fantastic research and data. And he also has in for young investors, the non institutional investors, he has a sub stack now that you can subscribe to so that's, that's really fantastic. And of course, you know, you can reach out to me, you can, you know, look at my LinkedIn page. I tried to, you know, put some commentary once in a while. But in these days, it's very focused on crypto.

Andrew Stotz 33:24
Okay. And just to mention that Michaels episode with me, was so fun, that I ended up turning it into a blog where I tried to really break down what he was talking about, which I published, you know, just recently called Michaelhouse shares why we should master the liquidity cycle to predict market. So yeah, he's got so much to say. Anyways, Alright, last question. What's your number one goal for the next 12 months?

Tania Reif 33:56
Oh, my God. I mean, we launched this, this crypto fund in 2022. And it has been a year of a lot of headwinds for the crypto space. I think, unfortunately, a lot of things have happened that have scared some of my prospective clients and, you know, away and we are growing slower than I was expecting. But I think we are approaching a turning point both in macroeconomic policy and hopefully on the regulatory headwinds. We have a much cleaner landscape in terms of leverage and positioning in the crypto space. So I'm actually quite bullish for the next 12 months in you know, the prospects of crypto so I really hope to get my younger fund up and running into a more mature and established institution. So yes, we get there.

Andrew Stotz 34:58
It's always dark has been For the dawn, the crypto market has taken a lot of hits recently. But eventually those hits get in the price. And then well, yeah,

Tania Reif 35:07
That's where the opportunity is. And I think, I think we are, you know, we're definitely are a very good entry point these days. I mean, you know, who knows is this month, two months, three months, but I think over the next year, I'm quite bullish.

Andrew Stotz 35:22
Okay. Well, listeners, there you have it another story of loss to keep you winning. Remember, I'm on a mission to help 1 million people reduce risk in their lives. As we conclude, Tanya, I want to thank you again for joining the mission. And on behalf of a Stotz Academy I hereby award you alumni status for turning your worst investment ever into your best teaching moment. Do you have any parting words for the audience?

Tania Reif 35:49
Please reach out if you're interested in learning more about crypto, I think the future I am very excited. And I'm here to answer any questions anybody has.

Andrew Stotz 36:01
Fantastic and we'll have links to all of your LinkedIn and other stuff in the show notes ladies and gentlemen so you can reach out and that's a wrap on another great story to help us create, grow and protect our well fellow risk takers. Let's celebrate that today. We helped we got one more person into our mission to help 1 million people reduce risk in their lives. This is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz saying. I'll see you on the upside.