Ep578: Mark Graban – Don’t Shame Yourself for Your Differences

Andrew Stotz 00:02
Hello fellow risk takers and welcome to my worst investment ever, stories of loss to keep you winning. In our community. We know that to win in investing, you must take risks but to win big, you've got to reduce it. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm on a mission to help 1 million people reduce risk in their lives. And that mission has led me to create the become a better investor community. In the community, you get access to our global asset allocation strategies and stock portfolios, our institutional grade investment research, weekly live sessions, and the risk reduction lessons I've learned for more than 500 guests go to my worst investment ever.com right now to claim your 50% lifetime discount exclusive for podcast listeners, fellow risk takers, this is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz, from a Stotz Academy, and I'm here with featured guests. Mark graven Mark, are you ready to join the mission?

Mark Graban 01:00
I am, and hopefully I'm not your worst guest ever.

Andrew Stotz 01:03
I have a feeling you will not be. And reason ladies and gentlemen, you're here when I introduce Mark. So Mark graven is an author and speaker, consultant, and podcaster. His podcasts include mean blog, interviews, habitual excellence, and my favorite mistake. He's also affiliated with the technology company, chi Nexus, and the healthcare advisory firm value capture. His books include his most recent titled, measures of success, react less lead better, improve more. He has a BS in industrial engineering from Northwestern University and an MS and an MBA from MIT is website with all of his books, podcasts, and much more is Mark graven.com. And I'll have a link to that in the show notes. Mark, take a moment and tell us about the unique value that you bring to this wonderful world.

Mark Graban 02:08
That's a really, you know, it's a big, heavy, important question. I should really think and reflect more about that. I mean, I think one piece, I think one unique thing, I'm a dock connector, I think if there's a theme to the work that I do, I've helped people in healthcare connect the dots to practices from improvement and management practices that come from other industries. I help people connect the dots between methods, like, you know, from my book measures of success of literally connecting the dots, I guess in a chart that shows performance, whether it's a stock or a business measure over time, connecting the dots and learning how to use those charts in a more effective way to make better decisions. And then I like to connect dots between my podcast guests and listeners across different fields. So I guess I'll wear that label on the dock connector.

Andrew Stotz 03:09
Interesting. And tell us how did you come up with your idea on I mean, you've got first of all, you got three podcasts, which, you know, most of my listeners are thinking, Oh, my goodness, I'm just trying to figure out how to start one. And for me, I already know it's hard enough to run one. Tell us why you have three and tell us a little bit about them and kind of what's what's going on with them.

Mark Graban 03:33
Yeah, so I started my first back in 2006. I mean, this was back. And if you were listening to the podcast, you would have to download them to an mp3 player. Like it was a really clunky process. But that one has a clunky name, lean blog interviews, I have a website, lean blog.org The name was probably a mistake, but it is what it is, you know, I've done more than 450 interviews with people in that field of what we call Lean management in different industries. And then these other two were honestly pandemic projects, you know, middle of 2020 Not being able to travel, trying to do a number of things that are helpful. So through that firm value capture, I started a podcast called habitual excellence, where we interview clients of that firm and some of the people at that firm and then I started my favorite mistake as a podcast in September of 2020. Because this idea of learning from mistakes and embracing that and celebrating it and getting better at it, including starting with myself, you know that's a topic I've been fascinated with for years and exploring that in the podcast has been great. So I love podcasting. I try to do it in a fairly efficient way. So it's not super time consuming but you know, they're all either a labor of love or part of my job or labor love are both really.

Andrew Stotz 04:55
And how do people react when you ask them to come on the show for my Favorite mistake,

Mark Graban 05:02
you know, the response has actually been a lot better, like I feared. Maybe a lot of people wouldn't come on a podcast and talk about their mistakes, you know, the first guest, and I think he set the tone perfectly. Kevin Harrington, who was one of the sharks on the US version of the show Shark Tank, as an investor and as an entrepreneur, and he was willing to come on and be really vulnerable and tell a story about kind of early days, you know, he, he's considered the inventor of the modern infomercial, he made a mistake that almost put his company out of business. But he embraced the mistake, he didn't blame others, he owned it, he put some changes in place to make sure that mistake wouldn't happen again. And you know, I think it's one of the things that set him up for success. So having the first guest means you have one guest, I was afraid that maybe quickly, it would dwindle down. Because people want to come on a podcast a lot of times and promote their new book, they want to promote their successes, and they want to focus on that. But finding people who are willing to come on and share a favorite mistake story, I think there's this mix of being brave and humble, that I've really enjoyed doing those interviews and getting to meet people that way.

Andrew Stotz 06:15
It's a little bit late with my podcast, I say my podcast is about authenticity. You know, this is a place where we share you know, our, you know, our worst, and I'm the worst podcast host, so don't worry about it, it's gonna be bad.

Mark Graban 06:31
Well, and thank you for convincing me you took a couple swings that Sam will come on, because I don't know if I have an investment story. Like I'm not afraid to talk about failures or mistakes. But I think we figured out some things we can talk about. So thank you, for

Andrew Stotz 06:44
my one of my one of my favorite replies. When I asked someone to come on the show, he says, Good idea, not my style.

Mark Graban 06:54
Yeah. And that happens sometimes, you know, and if someone doesn't want to talk about a mistake, okay, fine. There's plenty of if you will, generic business podcasts where they can go and open forum but a show like yours a show like mine, you know, it's unique. And I think our podcasts are kindred spirits.

Andrew Stotz 07:17
So for the listeners and the viewers out there, you know, take a moment and think about I know this morning, I was jumping in the shower, and I was thinking about our conversation we're gonna have tonight and I was thinking about, you know, what was my? Well, I guess I didn't think my favorite mistake, I was thinking my worst mistake, or my biggest mistake, and

Mark Graban 07:36
all that was might be those might be different. Yeah.

Andrew Stotz 07:40
But for the listeners out there, think about it. You know, what was your biggest your favorite, your worst? What was a mistake that you learn from and you grew from? I thought a lot about that. And I've come up with mine. And maybe someday I'll come on and share that with you.

Mark Graban 07:57
I hope so. But you summarized it really well, what makes it a favorite mistake is that it led to something positive that may have taken time for that to happen. But growth or sometimes a mistake ends up opening a door, that wouldn't have been an option. So that's part of the framing, it's a subjective question. But favorite may or may not be the same as biggest.

Andrew Stotz 08:19
Yep. Well, now it's time to share your worst investment ever. And since no one goes into their worst investment thinking it will be. Tell us a bit about the circumstances leading up to and then tell us your story.

Mark Graban 08:33
Yeah, so the year I think this was early 2000. And, you know, when I was young, I barely had a retirement account. I was sort of trying to get started with that. And, you know, I was working in technology at the time and somebody I worked with, for whatever reason, say, Oh, I got to tell you about the stock I invested in Oh, it's really it's skyrocketed, and I've made a lot of money. And it was a company called commerce one. This is back in like the y2k ecommerce b2b frenzy. I I didn't know I didn't know what the company did. I mean, there was this vague description of it. I certainly didn't do any sort of research. I didn't look at the numbers. I saw my friends said the stocks been going up and I made the mistake of thinking like, well, that means it's going to continue going up. Well, that's a bad assumption. Right. So I think I put something like maybe $4,000 into it. And before long, I think the value had fallen by about 50%. Right. So this wasn't money that was going to, you know, bankrupt me or make me homeless, but I think it reinforced that lesson of the being careful about choosing individual stocks and either letting you know letting professionals do it through diversified mutual funds or index funds or And, yeah, you know, so I, you know, I thought okay, well, lesson learned, I'm not a stock picker, I don't have time to do research at least I made the mistake young and with a relatively small amount of money, right could have been worse.

Andrew Stotz 10:17
And I think you're going to talk about another story too about some discovery that you've gotten in your life.

Mark Graban 10:26
Yeah, so this is where I think, you know, this goes in a little bit different direction, when you talk about investments, investing time in things that just don't work. Humans can be stubborn, I was stubborn, and I'll set the context or tell you what I recently learned and kind of go back and think of what that bad investment in time and effort was. So I'm 48 years old, going on 49. In a couple of months, I was recently formally diagnosed, and I actually I sought this out, but it was confirmed as having ADHD. And that's something that I think I knew I didn't know really for 20 or 25 years that I was in denial about this. I have struggles with attentiveness, apparently, especially at work in meetings and conferences. My this can be a blessing and a curse, my mind will wander I think I have a very curious creative mind. But you know, there was there was a time maybe 12 years ago, where I did get scolded when I was a consultant, and the client kind of complained to the head of the firm that, you know, my my quote, unquote, multitasking, like when one of the other consultants was leading the training, I thought, well, I've heard this all before I don't, I'm going to let him present, I'm not going to jump in and interrupt but be on my laptop. And they say, well, it looks like Mark's not very interested, he's not engaged. He's not oops, but that like that could have or should have been a wake up call, to try to get more serious help, but I the bad investment, the bad that I thought I needed to just care more, and I thought I needed to try harder. And I would sort of blame myself, if not sort of shaming myself for not paying attention. And, you know, there were a number of things that sort of lined up in this past year. Thankfully, there was not a life altering moment where I haven't lost a job about this. But like the two sides of the coin, this was a wake up call that ADHD is not just about inattentiveness, the same part of the brain that makes it hard to control where your attention goes, is the same part of the brain that can make it make it hard for someone to regulate emotion. Right. So if I get upset about something, I have trouble holding that in sometime to my own detriment. And so there were some moments like that, where I did feel like I was starting to damage, some relationships work wise. And I saw an article about this connection. And that was really the lightbulb moment of realizing, okay, you know, I'm going to stop being in denial about it, I'm going to stop investing time into trying to care more or trying harder. That's just not how my brain works. And so getting that diagnosis, now there's an investment in treatments, there are medications that are incredibly effective. And as I've learned, you know, the final thing about this, so I think there's a difference between those moments when we choose to not pay attention. Like we all do that, right? If something's boring or not interesting, we can choose to not pay attention. ADHD treatments, do not magically make boring things interesting. But here, here's the thing that has made a huge difference to me, even in a month, is when you want to pay attention to something. The medication and the treatment allows you to maintain that focus. And that's where I felt like I was missing out I was shortchanging clients, I was shortchanging myself. And those cycles of then feeling bad about struggling to pay attention to something I wanted to pay attention to. That made it even harder to pay attention. If I'm fixating now on what's wrong with me, why can't I pay attention? I think the quote unquote. And that's not the right way to say it. What's different about me and people who have ADHD, is that our brains are wired a little differently. And if we want to address that medications can help without changing who we are or how we think just that ability to focus is something I'm grateful for, and I regret not doing something about it 1015 20 years ago.

Andrew Stotz 14:46
So how would you describe the lessons that you've learned from this experience?

Mark Graban 14:52
I think it's one of those. There's, I mean, there's, you know, I think there's a number of lessons one is As you know, not to be in denial about things I've even read on on the My Favorite mistake podcast, different counselors and therapists and like there's this common theme, whether it's ADHD, or maybe other mental health questions of, if you, if you even think you might have a problem, you probably have a problem, or at the very least, it's worth talking to a professional to get help, depending on the situation, whether that means counseling, or therapy, or medication or all of the above. I think there's a lesson in, you know, not shaming yourself for your differences. If you have trouble fitting into a world that's generally created and managed by people without ADHD. You know, it can be hard to feel like you're not fitting in the way you might want to or might need to. And so one reason I've been open about ADHD within the two companies I'm involved in sharing with friends on Facebook is that there, I think there are a lot of people like me, who have had these doubts or these questions. And like me, they've either been in denial, they've tried compensating in different ways. And so for one, it's helpful when others speak up and say, Hey, me, too, like, let me let me share my experiences, let me do what I can to be supportive or helpful. And then I think being willing to share and disclose things like this helps others maybe decide if they want to take action, right. So I've had a guest recently on my favorite mistake, who was very vulnerable and open and talking about his past battles with depression. And I think him sharing that and being willing to do so create space for others, even if they don't want to speak up publicly maybe to reflect and realize, you know, that there is help. And especially if someone has ADHD, there are treatments that are incredibly effective with basically zero risk of side effects. And you know, I'm not a doctor, I'm not an expert in this, but I guess if somebody listening says, gosh, that might be me, I have some of these struggles. You can talk to a counselor, you can talk to a physician, maybe ideally, someone who's more of a specialist in ADHD to make sure you're getting maybe the latest and best advice.

Andrew Stotz 17:24
Got it. So maybe I'll summarize what I took away. You know, one of the things that you talked about was that, you know, it's not a matter of trying to care more, try harder. You know, like, all of a sudden, the pieces of the puzzle, you know, you started off this whole thing by saying that you're good at connecting the dots. And maybe that was a place where you weren't connecting the dots, and then all of a sudden, they came together. Yeah. And then you also, yeah, go ahead. Well, I

Mark Graban 17:56
was gonna say, I might not always be the fastest at connecting spots, but

Andrew Stotz 18:00
sometimes it's connecting other people's dots, or other situations, or external or whatever. But sometimes our internal dots are the hardest ones. You know, you talked about the blame and shame, you know, factor, and I know, no matter what is happening in our lives, we can feel blame, we can feel shame, about things that are going on. And, you know, you talk then about the idea of talking about it, and, and then seeking some help and the relief that that provides. So those are some, you know, powerful things for the listeners who are struggling with anything, you know, talk about it, don't be afraid to talk about, you know, you sent me in, you sent me an email, kind of mentioning about it a while ago. And I didn't mention, but in 1972, I was diagnosed with ADHD. And I was seven years old. And I found out about it from my mom, when she gave me this book that she kept what she wrote notes about my health and medical. And I saw that they started to put me on what was, you know, a magical drug at the time called Ritalin. And I was seven. And it probably, you know, helped me I'm sure, in some way, but one of the things that happened in my life is by the time I was in high school, I was pretty heavily addicted to drugs. Now, whether that came from the Ritalin or not, is, you know, up for debate. But certainly I faced a lot of struggles trying to overcome that I went into rehab and eventually got sober and in September of this year will be 40 years that I've been sober. And so that basically means is that I really, I can't treat my ADHD with drugs, which is too dangerous for my situation. Because, as an addict, it just Gonna bring me down a road that I don't want to be down, you know. And so therefore I've had to kind of deal with it in different ways. And one of the ways that I've dealt with it is I've surrounded myself with what I call steady Eddie's. Yeah, yeah. And I've got some really great people that are really steady in what they do every single day. And I'm a roller coaster, you know, when I'm, when I'm flying high, and I'm really cranking you know, it's like, I'm unbeatable. But then I crash.

Mark Graban 20:30
There's that hyper focus, right? If there's, if there's something you having that ability, it's two sides of the coin, right? The ability to really hyper focus and get things done, if it interests you and your brain at that moment. That's powerful. Now, it's just a share. And again, not a doctor, not a clinician, not an expert. But there's a lot of information out there, Andrew, about how ADHD and addiction are the very highly correlated, that, you know, the part of the brain that the dopamine receptors that don't work as well, and the ADHD brain, a lot of people self medicate, unfortunately. So alcohol abuse rates, drug abuse rates are far higher than the general population. Yeah. As a way of compensating,

Andrew Stotz 21:24
I wouldn't doubt that. And, you know, I remember I'll tell you a story, Mark, when I met a young lady in Thailand that was and I asked her, What do you do, and we were in a, you know, social setting. And she says, I help, you know, kids with ADHD. And she said to me, I said, Well, tell me more about that. And I didn't tell her anything about, you know, myself, but I just, and she said, You know, I really feel sorry for these kids, because they can't concentrate, and they're jumping up and down. And, you know, they're all over the place and all that. And, you know, what, my reply to her at some point, I stopped and I said, Well, you know, I was one of those kids. And nowadays, when I look at it, I look at it a little bit differently, I think, you know, and particularly after watching the last couple of years of, I would say, a lot of sheep, a lot of people just following blindly. And I would say that, you know, in my perspective, the 100 kids, the 99 kids that are sitting quietly listening to a boring lecture, at a young age, they're the ones that aren't normal.

Mark Graban 22:32
Well, there's differences there. Right. Yeah,

Andrew Stotz 22:35
That's was what I said, as I, when I look back at myself, now, I think, I just love my brain, and I love my intensity. And I love my roller coaster. And yeah, I could, you know, I could try to do something with it. But I decided that, well, you know, the risk is too high for me to do the medication angle, and therefore, it's really just a matter of, okay, how do I deal with it? And you know, I'm an up and down guy, when I'm up, I'm really good. When I'm down, you just don't hear from me, because I'm tired. And I'm in bed, and I'm relaxing and sleeping, and then I'll be back with hyper focus and energy.

Mark Graban 23:14
Well, I mean, I'd suggest also, I mean, I think it took me a while with my career to find a setting that more often than not, allows the benefits of the way my brain works to shine. Right? So me go into the same cubicle every day doing the same work. And that's that, that is not a fit for me. But doing things that are more entrepreneurial, being a consultant working with different clients, different learning different stimulation, different environments, is good for me. I've heard like, for example, a lot of emergency room physicians are probably far more ADHD than the general public because there's that adrenaline rush. And there's, there's that constant newness and at some point, you might get really bored of seeing the same type of case coming in, over and over. But there's always that possibility of like, okay, something really interesting, unique, you know, is coming in. So, you know, maybe people have to find a good fit and like you said, if you're going to be an entrepreneur or find people who can do the steady routine, regular things so that your creativity in your gifts are a huge benefit.

Andrew Stotz 24:27
Yeah, yeah. No, it's great. It's a great reminder and I know for everybody out there, you know, ideally, you know, you've got a couple of different things if something's not working right in your life, you know, take a lesson from Mark and ask questions, try to get help and get support but also take another lesson in that is that you know, you're beautiful as you are to don't feel like you know, I'm wrong I'm bad I'm this I'm that, you know, become more Over have yourself in, you know, I would say that that to me is kind of the the big journey of what life is really about. So let me ask you what is a resource that you'd recommend for our listeners?

Mark Graban 25:16
Well, around you know, the podcast, my favorite mistake, you can go to my favorite mistake podcast.com. In a way, I have sort of reflected on this. The title, the phrase, my favorite mistake comes from a Sheryl Crow song from the 90s. Do you know that song? Andrew was my, my favorite mistake?

Andrew Stotz 25:37
I don't remember it. And it's about membership crow. Yeah,

Mark Graban 25:41
it's about a lot of mistake, it was one of our hits. So unfortunately, like, I mean, it's a great phrase. And you know, there's nothing legally preventing me from using it. But if people go and search, let's say, Spotify, for just my favorite mistake, they're gonna find all the different versions of that Sheryl Crow song. So people may need to search my favorite mistake podcast in Spotify, or Apple or wherever. You know, but I hope people will check it out. Because again, you know, the tone of the podcast is not about shaming people for their mistakes, it's to embrace and celebrate the authenticity, the openness, the willingness to share. And I think that inspires others to to remember, we all make mistakes, we should be ideally learning from our mistakes and finding this balance of not not beating ourselves up or shaming ourselves for it, but maybe reflecting, taking ownership and then moving forward, right, we don't want to dwell on mistakes, I think that can then be harmful or counterproductive. But, you know, I would invite people to check out the podcast, I hope it inspires them and helps them think through their own mistakes, their own professional lives, or their lives in general.

Andrew Stotz 26:56
And it's even easier way to find it, Mark, just go to the podcast, my worst investment ever.com show notes, and I'm gonna have that, and the links, everything of yours in there. So last question, what's your number one goal for the next 12 months?

Mark Graban 27:14
So my number one goal, and I've started on it and working toward it is that I'm going to be I am writing a book that's based on the lessons from the My Favorite mistake podcast series, the stories and the reflections from those different guests and a little bit of my own reflections and experiences. You know, I think first off on an individual level, helping people think through how do I process and learn from mistakes as an individual and I think even more powerful is the lessons from guests who have talked about creating a culture in their company, where it's safe for people to talk about mistakes, and that they're not blamed or punished or fired. But the organization learns and gets better. So those are the two main themes of the book, lessons for individuals, lessons for organizations. I don't know what I'm going to call the book yet. I'm writing without knowing exactly what the title is that happens, but there'll be some phrase and I hope that book reaches people, you know, not everyone. People maybe should you know, not everyone listens to podcasts. They should be they should be listening to your podcast, Andrew, but I think the book will reach people in a different way than the podcast, how

Andrew Stotz 28:30
long will it take you to write it? I think?

Mark Graban 28:34
That's a good question. What I've written books before. You know, it's usually anywhere from about six to nine months of writing, but that's finding time within all the other things that I'm still doing. So it's not a full time job. I can't stop the world and say it maybe, you know, maybe I should, you know, take a week off and go to a cabin somewhere and write the book, but it percolates, you know, I think about it, I get writing done, come back to it. You know, that's what my process has been. And you know, it's, you know, as far as ADHD goes, sometimes the stereotypical typical thing would be starting projects and not finishing them. Thankfully, I've gotten different books across the finish line, but I think it's more what you're alluding to Andrew, when the hyper focus is there when it's a topic that I love. It's not hard to be motivated or to be attentive.

Andrew Stotz 29:26
Yeah, and when you go to that cabin, why don't you just go relax, enjoy yourself?

Mark Graban 29:31
What do I need to do that for a while before then I feel ready. So maybe it's got to be two weeks, one week to relax one week to write.

Andrew Stotz 29:38
Bam, well, listeners, there you have it another story of loss to keep you winning. If you haven't yet joined the become a better investor community just go to my worst investment ever.com right now to claim your 50% lifetime discount exclusive for podcast listeners. As we conclude, Mark, I want to thank you again for joining our mission and on behalf of AES Arts Academy, I hereby award you alumni status for turning your worst investment ever into your best teaching moment. Do you have any parting words for the audience?

Mark Graban 30:11
Well, I think as you've asked people to think and reflect, you know, I love that you're doing that. And this idea of being willing to share a story where we didn't have our greatest success. But you know, something that was a learning moment for ourselves, you know, I think there's, there's cases where like, people could learn from my mistake, be really careful choosing individual stocks. But I think there's a higher lesson there of embracing, you know, the idea of transparency and openness to if you've made a mistake at work, hopefully, you're in an environment where you can tell your co workers, I made a mistake, let's address it in a constructive way. If people aren't in that environment, then at least maybe internally or with themselves that they can at least admit mistakes to themselves and move forward in a better way. So I think we're on the same page of asking or inviting people to reflect and think to themselves or share the story with someone close to them or maybe even on a podcast.

Andrew Stotz 31:16
Fantastic. Well, that's a wrap on another great story to help us create, grow and protect our wealth. And, as Mark has taught us, our health Velo risk takers, let's celebrate it today. We added one more person to our mission to help 1 million people reduce risk in their lives. This is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz saying, I'll see you on the upside.