Ep428: Kara Goldin – Don’t Put Industry Leaders on a Pedestal

Andrew Stotz 00:02
Hello fellow risk takers and welcome to my worst investment ever stories of loss to keep you winning in our community we know that to win big in investing you must take risks but to win bigger you've got to reduce it to join our community for free go to my worst investment ever.com and receive the free risk reduction checklist I've created from the lessons I've learned from all my guests also in the community you can get a super special podcast listener discount on my six week valuation masterclass boot camp. In the boot camp, you learn how to value companies like a pro in advance your career in finance, go to my worst investment ever.com and join our community for free. Fellow risk takers This is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz and from a Stotz Academy and I'm here with featured guests. Kara golden Carrie, are you ready to rock? I'm ready. All right, well, let me take a moment and introduce you to our audience. Kara golden is the founder and CEO hint, Inc, best known for its award winning hint water, but leading unsweetened flavored water. She has received numerous accolades including being named he why Entrepreneur of the Year, Northern California, and one of in styles. 2019 bad ass 50 previously Kara was VP of shopping partnerships in America Online. She hosts the podcast the Kara golden show, her first book on daunted overcoming doubts and doubters was released in October 2020. and is now a Wall Street Journal on Amazon best seller, Cara lives in the Bay Area with her family, Carol take a minute and filming for the tidbits about your life.

Kara Goldin 01:49
I mean, I think you kind of covered it, it's, uh, you know, it more than anything, I think it's what I've realized is that it's a journey, and, and doing what you love and figuring out what you want to be doing. I mean, you certainly have, you know, had your own journey of not doing things in a straight line. So I'm excited to be here.

Andrew Stotz 02:13
Yeah, well, it's great to have you on and I'm wearing this beautiful short shirt undaunted, and I have the book here. And I was telling you, before we turn on the video that are the odd the recording, that mom grabbed the book, The minute it came in, and she devoured it, and she was telling me all the stories, so we've been going through it. So we appreciate that you took the time, you know, to write it down. I know it's not, it's not easy, it takes time, but doing it really leaves something special for the world. So I appreciate that. So for the listeners out there, I'll have the link in the show notes so you can get the book and learn more. So Meanwhile, now it's time to share your worst investment ever. And since no one goes into their worst investment thinking it will be. Tell us a bit about the circumstances leading up to then tell us your story.

Kara Goldin 03:05
Well, so I started hint, my company that you mentioned, tint water. It's an unsweetened flavored water. It's only available in the us right now. So if you've never seen it, and you're outside of the US, then hopefully it'll be in your country soon. But basically, I started this company. Coming from a career in tech, I had never worked in the beverage industry, I really didn't know anything about the beverage industry other than the fact that I drank beverages. I drink a lot of diet soda Diet Coke in particular. And it was when I had taken a break from my tech career, I had built up the shopping and ecommerce on America Online. And it had become a billion dollar business for America Online I that was a over the course of seven years. That's when I decided to take a little break. I had three kids under the age of four. And I lived in San Francisco, I was primarily living on the East Coast with America Online. And I felt like it was time for me to just really take a break and spend some time with my family. And that's when I also decided that it was time to get healthy. Sometimes when you take a break, you decide, you know, I'm going to get in shape. I'm going to you know, take care of the weight issues that I had, and that was definitely me. I had gained a bunch of weight over the course of my pregnancies, my skin and develop this terrible adult acne that I never even had as a teenager. And so I started looking at not only gradients, but also I started dieting. And I had never dieted in my life, but I realized that it's a very smart person, even to a smart person, actually trying to figure out how to get out Healthy was incredibly challenging. And I knew how to work out, I knew how to train properly. But the whole food thing and drink thing was just incredibly confusing. And I basically got to this point of pretty much giving up. When I decided to do a little test with this diet drink that I had been drinking for so many years, not really thinking that it was going to do anything by giving it up. But I gave up the Diet Coke that I've been drinking since I was 13 and started drinking plain water. And for me, plain water had always been super boring. And that's why I never drank it. But I just was committed and decided to do it. So I gave it up. And two and a half weeks after giving up my diet coke, that's when I lost 24 pounds, my skin cleared up. And I thought this is crazy. I mean, why don't more people know that just by giving up some of the stuff that they've been putting in their body that they can reset lots of things that they're trying to change. And like I said, I was really bored with plain water. So I started slicing up fruit and throwing it in the water. Maybe at some point I kind of thought I was cheating because I was, you know, adding a little bit of fruit, but there was no sweeteners, no diet, sweeteners, no sugar in it. And so that's when I decided to launch hint, and which is essentially the product that I created in my kitchen, I thought, you know, I'm not doing anything else. I'm not working right now. So why don't I get a product on the shelf and see what happens, I never dreamt of being an entrepreneur, I never, you know, thought about it. But when I had finally launched this product on the shelf at Whole Foods, that's when I decided I need to go and get industry experts, because industry experts are going to, you know, help me to really get this product going and get it off the Get it off to the right start. And so, you know, I did everything from go out and tap my friends to find out if they knew anyone who had worked at Coke or Pepsi or, or any of the big soda companies I, you know, thought, Gosh, maybe I should go get consultants to go and help me figure this out. And I think where I really went wrong was that all of those things cost a lot of money. Right. And I think that the core of my product really started from a place of, of it was a problem that I was, you know, solving for myself and I had created my own solution. But unfortunately, the beverage experts that were out there the industry experts that I so wanted all my answers from them for, they didn't really understand the mission and the purpose behind the product. And that was sort of the first thing that I noticed. And, you know, I after spending a lot of money trying to get those people to sort of give me all the answers. What I realized too, was that a lot of the playbook that they had gone through within these large companies were not the same playbook that I needed. And so I was actually setting up from square one, I didn't have the big red trucks that came down the street to go and deliver my product, I didn't have any of the relationships. My cell was also not based on you know, relationships or, or categories, even I had created an entirely new category in the beverage industry, which wasn't even planned grammed in according to buyers that I was dealing with. So there were so many differences. And what I always tell people, you know, that I've seen in every industry entrepreneurs and what I faced was that, you know, when you're doing that when you're creating an entirely new category, when you're doing something that comes from a mission and a purpose. It really is apples to oranges to these experienced people that I was paying so much money to in the early early days, because they're used to running with their own playbook. They have their trucks, they have their, their, you know, manufacturers that are manufacturing the products so they couldn't do what I was doing, which was starting from square one. They came in years and years later, somebody else started in square one. So they weren't going to be able to innovate and disrupt not only an industry, but also helped me do things that I wanted to do, including beyond just launching the product, create a product that didn't have didn't have preservatives in it. So I didn't understand coming from the beverage or coming from the tech Industry into the beverage industry. Why a water and fruit product with reusing real fruit without anything else in it needed preservatives. I mean, I philosophically understood that something that's natural and something that is real fruit will go bad over time. But I said, Isn't there some other way to do this, besides adding preservatives? And most people said, No. End of discussion. And a couple of people said, You know, I don't know the answer. And those were the people that I actually wanted to engage with, because they were the curious ones, the ones that would take the steps, maybe not necessarily with me, but allow me to know that there was something else out there that I needed to search for, to find the answers because it wasn't, it wasn't solid, right. It wasn't an absolute that this was a can't happen. And so again, like the industry experts, everything from people that I hired to, to bottlers and co Packers that I was dealing with that said, this is this is the formula, this is the way it's done, because it's always been done. Those weren't the people that we're going to go outside of the box, and actually figure out what else can we do in order to do it. And so that that was, you know, I guess, the lessons as

Andrew Stotz 11:29
we get into this, so that is that, before we go to the lesson, let me just ask you, how long did it take before you realize this, like, sometimes I mean, you someone can exhaust all the money they have paying this? And I know, for the listeners out there, it's not just starting a business, it's like, Okay, I need someone to help me with marketing, I need someone to help me with this. And there's this, you know, constant trade off, do I learn it myself? Do I build competency in my own business? Or do I go out and get someone and then you're disappointed at times? And I'm just curious, how long did it take you to kind of figure this out?

Kara Goldin 12:03
Yeah, well, the people thing in particular, I mean, those two examples that I gave not only hiring people, and for full time people, but also the consultants, it was about, it was like that first year that I found. And the problem is when you commit to something, you know, depending on who you ask, but you think you've got to give these people time, as well. Like I now say to our managers, like if you know, it's not the right thing, trust your gut on stuff and, you know, hire, you know, hire slow and fire fast, right, like, it's it. I mean, that's kind of the thinking. And I really, really believe that, especially if you're, I think is, it also kind of get went against something that now I believe a lot, which is that you've got to believe in yourself, right? And it really starts with you. And if you don't believe in yourself, you know, you go and try and hire this experience. Sometimes it can work and sometimes they can give you components. But But again, what is the payoff? Like what is the what's the trade off of hiring somebody? And the expense is it? I think oftentimes, what I've said is that you can figure out a lot of stuff along the way, it may take you longer. And so then because it's gonna take you longer, is it worth the money to go and spend, right to go and to go faster? Maybe. But again, you they're not sort of the the typical things that you might think instead that the core problem that I had initially was really believing in myself, and believing that I couldn't go and find figure out, you know, the answers, and it's what I've said, you know, over and over again, since then, is that I can figure most things out, I can actually go and sell hint. And in a store, I'd never done it before. But I can figure out how to do it, I can figure out how to bottle a product that doesn't have preservatives in it. I can, you know, do a lot of things along the way. It may take me longer to figure things out. But I can definitely do it. And I think that that's an important piece for people to recognize and kind of ask along the way, too. Is that Is it worth it? I think that the other thing that I realized in hiring people who, you know, maybe you're hiring them and you share with them that you're hiring them because they have great experience and you know, you can learn a lot and they can manage a lot but the problem is, is that if they walk into the business actually thinking that they know a lot more than you do, then they actually, you know forget about attitude and all these other components to it, but that they think their value is probably higher than it is. And so for the minute that you start asking, How do I produce a product that doesn't have preservatives in it, you start to have them question your credibility, right and your ability, because maybe they've never thought about those, maybe they're not that visionary entrepreneur that you are, that they believe that exactly what they had been taught from working at, you know, Pepsi for 20 years that they that this is the way it's done. And they don't even know what they don't know. But they believe, because they have experience. And so I think, over and over again, I've, I've learned this lesson in different scenarios, I guess. But it's definitely, you know, the experience is, I would say, curiosity for me is really, and the ability to go try. And the ability to kind of think outside of the box, definitely is, is much more valuable to me and an employee than actually straight experience. And, in fact, if you look around our company, today, 16 years later, there's a very few people that actually came from the beverage experience. But that it's not to say that they don't have a common thread, but it's more about health, and about staying healthy than it is about the actual product.

Andrew Stotz 16:38
So maybe I'll summarize I mean, I think you've told a great story that has a lot of lessons in it, let me maybe throw in a few things that I take away from it. The first one is the big business world is so different from the small business world. So some many times when you take someone from the big business world into the small business world, they're not used to, you know, as my business partner in our coffee factory in Thailand, used to joke he said, You know, I got a call today. And they said, I'd like to talk to the accounting department. And he said, Okay, wait a minute, one moment, he put down the phone, and he said, accounting department. And then the other side, someone called in said, I want to talk to someone in the sales department One moment, please, sales department. And you know, you have to do everything in a startup. And many people at that level, in a corporate environment aren't used to that they just call the human resources, hey, I need a couple more people. And next thing you know, those people show up. The second thing is, be careful of a students. This is another lesson that I try to teach my students at university is that sometimes the skills that are required to get A's in school are the exact opposite skills that are required to be successful in business. Now, sometimes they apply, like, you know, okay, your engineer, and you need to understand these formulas. And if you don't understand the way gravity works, well, you're not gonna be able to build a building. But in business, sometimes it's about breaking rules, pushing boundaries. And that's not what someone learns successes, when you fit into that mold of a student. The other thing that I think about two is it's not just convention that you're fighting such as, you know, when you're introducing a new product, you're fighting Pepsi, and coke, and all of these conventional ways of doing things. But they also have some sort of connection with the government in FDA requirements, and all of these things. So it's like the whole structure is kind of built around the way it is done. And so when you come in with this mission, with this, trying to believe in yourself that I can do it, and you're going to kind of break that mold, the people in the system aren't going to change the system. They're gonna operate in the system. So it's just those are some of the takeaways that anything you would add to that?

Kara Goldin 19:03
Well, I think that those are all definitely correct. I mean, I think that the other thing that I've learned too, is that you have a different structure when you're working, obviously, you've worked in large companies and smaller companies, but you have a different structure. And, and I think that oftentimes, when you're coming from what is what is perceived as a very successful company, I mean, those are kind of the most dangerous, I guess, maybe those are the the A students that you're talking about that they're, you know, that that they there's a cachet to it right that you're that everybody thinks, oh, you're you know, you work for that company, and that's great. But the problem is, is that when those companies are really successful, you're, you're the critical thinking aspect, the things that the challenging times all of those things are, you know, few and far between, right because there's a lot of Have spokes in the wheel that are kind of making it happen. And you know, that that's kind of the clear thing. So when you're a little startup or even a medium sized startup and you hire somebody that is been on, you know, this, this rocket ship for a while, it's really important to understand when they came into the rocket ship, right, and when, and, you know, maybe they got fired from the rocket ship, right, that also happens to it just that doesn't make them. I mean, maybe if they got indicted it, you know, it might have might be a different story, but, but that's the thing that I've learned. It's just understanding the phase that these people came in, and what kind of challenges because I think that if you're in a large public company, and you've never seen a challenge before, you may not know that you if you're the person hiring, because you're so you know, that the brand that they're at, and in, in the industry that you want to play in, is kind of throwing you right from from actually being able to pay attention, because you think you've got this great catch, by the way, probably an expensive catch to right. So that's the thing that I've learned along the way that it's that you just, it's kind of buyer beware, I guess to some extent, yep.

Andrew Stotz 21:24
Um, since we've got a just a little bit more time, I know, you had another story we talked about from the book, and maybe you could just also tell that second story so that people can understand what you went through with that. And then, and then we'll wrap it up.

Kara Goldin 21:40
Yeah, well, I guess kind of like people. I mean, I think that the I touched on this just a minute ago as it relates to people, but also as it relates to partnerships and your brand. So for us, Starbucks was this, you know, incredible coupe that if we could get it into Starbucks, all over the US that was going to be a big deal. And took us a little while. And we finally figured out how to make it happen and got the Yes. And we went into 1000s of stores all over the US with just one flavor. I happened to be drinking it right now the BlackBerry hint and, and so I remember being really smart, asking, you know, our buyer, so what is success? Right? The great good thing, like when will you all be happy? How many bottles Do we have to sell it for us it wasn't just about getting it in but also getting the reorders. And she said if you sell one and a half bottles per store per day, you're doing great. So every day, I looked at those sheets selected those numbers, and, you know, they were slowly working my mind, I wanted it done immediately. But it's slowly making its way to, you know, getting traction and people trying it and, and by the end of six months, we were at one and a half bottles per store per day. And so I was feeling great, right? I didn't want those numbers to go down and they didn't, they continued going up. And so after a year and a half, we're now at three bottles per store per day. And I'm thinking, you know, this is great, my buyers happy everybody's happy. We're happy Starbucks happy they pay us everything is great. new buyer comes in and into the spot at Starbucks and sends me an email and said, I'd really like to meet you can we get on the phones, we get on the phone. And she said, unfortunately, we've from the top from Howard Schultz's office, we've decided to change strategy, and remove some things from the case, including your product. It's nothing against you or your brand, but we're going to remove you from there and put in sandwiches and higher margin businesses that have higher ring and higher margins. So I'm like, you must be talking about another product because we're killing it with you. And we had worked so hard and had, you know, really felt confident and good about this relationship, not thinking that they would ever wake up and kick us out at some point. And this was 40% of our overall business. And so when I got the bad news from the buyer, I remember thinking this is really, really bad. But the worst part about it was that I had all this perishable product that was sitting in a warehouse that was gonna go bad. And I said, So when are you discontinuing our product from all the cases and the and the buyer said in two weeks, so I thought how like, you can't do that and she said, we can do that and we are going to do that. And I'm very sorry. And I just thought, What am I going to do? Because I had to go back and tell my investors and the board and everything that this wasn't happening anymore. And I didn't have a solution, because I put all my eggs into this basket, which is

Andrew Stotz 25:13
like the best basket to put it in. I mean, come on,

Kara Goldin 25:15
like a great basket. But I didn't if this if the, you know, if the sky fell, what was I going to do? I didn't have what what happens? What's the worst case scenario in the situation. And so we were pulled out of Starbucks, and that's when, a couple of weeks later, I actually got a email from another seattle washington company called Amazon and Amazon was starting this grocery business. And you know, one of the things that I've always been great about is understanding not, not just the lessons learned along the way when challenging times come about, but in addition, to look for, look for opportunities, and I think that so often people freeze and they go in a hole, whatever when challenging times happen. But I've always been really good at trying to figure out okay, what else can we do and ask him that question, what else can we do, but when I get on the phone with the buyer from, from Amazon, the first thing out of his mouth was I love your product, I hope we can get it pretty quickly because I need to get it into the warehouse and have it at Amazon. But he said, I just have to tell you, I get a bottle at Starbucks every single day when I'm getting my espresso. And I didn't know didn't know if I should actually share with him that we were kicked out of Starbucks, he didn't seem to now. But that's when I really thought about Starbucks and how, you know, while I'd had been, you know, not the greatest situation, not the greatest end, what they had done was open up new opportunities along the way. So it wasn't all bad. But the next thing that you know, really hit me though, was the fact that the reason why I was so aggravated and frustrated and frankly, pointing at Starbucks about this, even though there was a lot of good to it. And sure they didn't have to kick us out after two weeks, and all are within two weeks and all of that. But the key thing that I realized was that shame on me for taking my eye off the ball, that when great opportunities come around, like, you know, Starbucks, you have to figure out what other levers Do you have, right? And instead of sitting there and focusing just on that one account, just on that one, you know, situation, great situation, you always have to be careful about one piece of business or, you know, one supplier or whatever getting too big, right? Because if they go away, and I think that the challenge that I've seen, too, for other entrepreneurs is sometimes, you know, you You're, you're celebrating the wins, right, which is great, but you celebrate them for too long. Instead, you've got to be figuring out how to diversify and diversifying can mean not just, you know, people, but also your business, but also figuring out, you know, how do I get more of those so that if a piece of this business goes away, will I be okay? If there's a change somewhere in there, will I be okay. And so, important lesson there. And I think in some ways, it's the same story. parts of it are the same story, as you know, the one that I shared around the people, the people, the reason why I was so there was this poll to hire these people and is because of experience, right? It's the same kind of thing when you see big brands, because you think that they have the experience the cachet, you want to borrow equity, right from those brands, or those people or whatever. But I think that you just have to be careful not to put all your eggs in either one of those baskets, because if you do, and there's a shift, there's a change, maybe a person quits or you know, they're too hard to sort of turn their ship to understand kind of what your mission and your why you're different your initiative or whatever. I think that there's an important piece in there that I think everyone needs to remember in voting those

Andrew Stotz 29:47
stories. So let me ask you based upon what you learn from these two stories, and what you continue to learn, what one action would you recommend our listeners take to avoid suffering? The same fate, I'll give you two actions. How would you help them to think about it, they come into these situations, what would be one thing that they could do to protect themselves from making this mistake?

Kara Goldin 30:11
Well, one of the stories I share in the book is a friend of mine. Now, Josh, I had only met him when I was first starting my company at a flower company. And he had gotten into this great market in the US called Whole Foods. And I said, we haven't gotten into Whole Foods yet. I'd met him right before lunch, I said, How do we get our product into Whole Foods, and he said, you'll get your product into Whole Foods. But the key is get your product and to Whole Foods, maybe go have a beer or a glass of wine, have a little celebration, and then go get more of those and try and figure out constantly, how do you diversify? How do you and how do you find others so that if that one goes away, that you'll be okay. And I think that, again, it applies to people as much as it applies to, you know, your partnerships, your business that and so often we freeze because we think everything is great, right? But I think even managing during the pandemic, you sit here and, you know, think when everything seems right, I mean, I always act a little paranoid, right? Because I'm constantly wanting to make sure do we have enough production? Do we are we even when we don't need something, you know, people like what if somebody goes away tomorrow that you have so much invested in that you're that you're relying on, you know, you should be trying to encourage them to hire people underneath them who you know, will potentially work them out of a job, so they can go do something else, hopefully, inside your company, but maybe outside of your company. And I think that it's the same lessons that apply. It's like, minimize risk by diversifying, and making sure that you're not too reliant on one partner, one person. That's really the key thing.

Andrew Stotz 32:02
Great, great advice. I know in the world of finance, we call that concentration risk. And that idea that you're too concentrated in one region or one customer, that type of thing. And it's one of the major risks, the other major risks that we experienced in the world of finance is for companies is debt. So that is the most common one that people get into, and they stumble into it. And they end up losing their businesses. And I would say, concentration risk is such a challenging one. Because when you're small, and when you're growing, you see a huge opportunity, you got to grab it, but it's going to bring you another problem, you're going to be overly reliant on them. And I remember a story in my own coffee visits where we landed, you know, one of the best global brands for restaurants to supply them with machines and coffee. And after supplying them for many years, we had a meeting internally with the management team. And we asked what are some of our biggest risks outstanding, and what one of them after we kind of ranked all the different risks, one of them said, we could lose that customer right now, because of something that was going on at the time. And so we did two things, we immediately started to work with them more deeply to make sure we resolve any issues that were outstanding. And then the second thing we did is said, How do we get another one of them so that if we lose them, it's not going to kill us or that we balance out and reduce the concentration of that. And we slowly did that. Just before the crisis now Thailand has been shut down. So it's very hard for everything to work. And Thais don't drink coffee at home so much they drink instant coffee. So I revenues been crushed. But just by chance, we landed one of the other huge account in Thailand. And they've been buying and expanding their branches even during this economic downturn that we're facing right now. So that's really that concentration risk carried us out. So sometimes it works in your favor. And sometimes it doesn't, but I just I love the lessons there. Let me ask you, what is your number one goal for the next 12 months?

Kara Goldin 34:03
Well, well, we're building a standalone business. We've been doing that since day one, but I think for us and maybe this was even emphasized Steven more during, you know, the last year and a half during this crazy time. But, you know, our focus has always been on helping people get healthy. And so we have other products that we have I send some of them to you who's got sunscreen and deodorants and some other things that really, really help. Yeah, lip balm that are just great products. And you know, we've learned a lot about allergens and you know, for example coconut which I know is very, very common and Thai products. I mean coconut is a class one allergen that, you know, I happen to be allergic to it. So I know quite a bit about it. People focus on peanuts, for example. I mean, coconut is not as big as peanut allergies, but it's as dangerous. It will close the throat very, very quickly. There are tons of products that use coconut. It's not just coconut water, but the base of many of these natural products like deodorant, for example. People will share with me Oh yeah, these natural deodorants didn't work. And I always ask them if they have a coconut allergy, and they're like, I don't think so. But that's often where the rash is coming from. And so I want to produce products that actually help people to get healthier, right? It's not to I'm like a, you know, glutton for punishment, because I won't launch products if they're already out there. I think for me, there has to be a key differentiator. I mean, oxybenzone is something that I've known in sunscreens is just really bad news. It's actually not in many sunscreens in other countries outside of the US, but it's something that has been highlighted for the reefs, as well as it's just bad news, potentially could actually aggravate underneath the skin, the cancer cells that cause skin cancer, and so I've been, you know, reading up on it for years and you know, many products have stuck it in there. And, you know, it's interesting when we launched our hint sunscreen A few years ago, we highlight it on the bottle, no oxybenzone and people were like, what's oxy? benzo? And they had no idea what it was. And people have asked me many times, when did you know you had a brand and when I started seeing other sunscreen companies start to put no oxy benzo no oxy, benzo and on their bottles, and following, you know, little loss, people who didn't have experience in the industry, but we're, we're educating and setting the stage, frankly, for things that they knew. They just didn't think that the consumer knew. So there was no reason why they had to reformulate. But when a company can actually lead by doing the right thing for the consumer, and, and large companies much larger than us will follow because they feel like they have to now that's a powerful position to be in.

Andrew Stotz 37:16
Well, listeners, maybe you're going to get a hint in your country. You know, my listeners are in Thailand, United Kingdom, India, Canada, Australia, Singapore, Philippines. Those are some of the listeners that I have out there as well as of course a lot of people in the US so I know our listeners are excited to learn your journey and keep following that. And what's the best way for them to follow you? Is it through the podcast? Is it through social media where's the best way if they like what they hear from you that they can keep following your story?

Kara Goldin 37:52
Yeah, all over social media at Kara golden with an eye and I do have a podcast called the Kara golden show. And that's a place where I interview founders and CEOs and get to hear their great stories of how they've done incredible things. And frankly, all the mistakes that they've made along the way that they didn't expect. it's sort of a passion project. For me. It's a place where I learn as well and that was my primary reason for starting it three years ago. And you know, the book is called undaunted, overcoming doubts and doubters. It's in bookstores everywhere on Amazon, you can for sure find it but it's also on Audible worldwide to so if you like to listen to books, you can find it there.

Andrew Stotz 38:41
Yep, fantastic. Well, listeners there you have it. Another story of loss to keep you winning. My number one goal for the next 12 months is to help you my listeners, reduce risk and increase return in your life. To achieve this I've created our community at my worst investment ever.com and when you join you also get that special discount on my six week valuation masterclass boot camp. As we conclude, Carl, I want to thank you again for coming on the show. And on behalf of a Stotz Academy, I hereby award you alumni status for turning your worst investment ever into your best teaching moment. Do you have any parting words for the audience?

Kara Goldin 39:23
Find those lessons out there that you can learn from and move forward.

Andrew Stotz 39:30
Beautiful, and that's a wrap on another great story to help us create, grow and protect our well fellow risk takers. This is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz saying. I'll see you on the upside.