Ep394: David Allen – When the Pressure Is on Step Back and Take Time to Think

Andrew Stotz 00:01
Hello fellow risk takers and welcome to my worst investment ever stories of loss to keep you winning. In our community. We know that to win in investing, you must take risk but to win big, you've got to reduce it to join our community go to my worst investment ever.com and receive these five free benefits first, you get the risk reduction checklist I've created from the lessons I've learned from all my guests. Second, you get my weekly email to help you increase your investment return third, you get a 25% discount on all a Stotz Academy courses. Fourth, you get access to our Facebook community to get to know guests and fellow listeners. And finally, you get my curated list of the Top 10 episodes. Fellow risk takers This is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz from a Stotz Academy, and I'm here with featured guest, David Allen. David, are you ready to rock? Why not? Well, I want to introduce you to the audience. And let me tell them one of the world's most influential thinkers on productivity, David's 35 years experience as a management consultant and executive coach, have earned him worldwide recognition, his best selling book, the groundbreaking getting things done, the art of stress, free productivity, has sold millions and has been published in 30 languages. And the GTD methodology it describes has become a global phenomenon being taught by training companies in more than 90 countries. David has his company and his partners are dedicated to teaching people how to stay relaxed, and productive in our fast paced world. David, take a minute and filet further tidbits about your life.

David Allen 01:45
35 jobs by the time I was 35, didn't know what the heck I was wanting to do when I grew up. Just needed to pay the rent and wound up bouncing around and ultimately discovered I was pretty good at being a number two guy, so I helped a lot of friends with their businesses. I just go in and look around, say how much easier can we make this? Now they call that process improvement? I was just lazy. How much earlier can we get out of here, you know, what we're doing? And so then I discovered they actually pay me back, you know, I fix it, they get bored and then go find another job that I discovered they pay people to do that they call them something consultant, you know, when couldn't spell it that way? r1. So 1982, hung up my shingle alad Associates, and they started to just say, Okay, can I sell myself on a project by project basis. And also, I like being clear, I like being not distracted, I like being free of stuff. So I found a lot of techniques that work for me, turned around and use those with my clients to help them get more control, relaxation, focus, etc. And it all worked. like Wow, well, that's cool. So that kind of became the core of a lot of what I was consulting and, and, you know, working with people then and then somebody some big corporate head of HR, you know, in a big corporation saw what I was doing and said, Gee, David, we need that are normal company, can you design some training around that. So you can reach a lot of people with this stuff instead of one on one? So I did, and it worked. And that was highly successful, Lucky 1983 84. And that sort of threw me into the corporate training world who would have thought? That's like what that was. And I'm not particularly you know, and I'm not particularly entrepreneurial, or even aspirational in that regard. I'm really more educated than anything else than a researcher. What, what is it that allows us to stay clear and focused in the world and then turned out that what I uncovered hit a nerve out there. And it took me 20 years to figure out what I'd figured out and then it was bulletproof. And then nobody else seemed to have done it. And that's what I wrote the book, getting things done. So there's a short version of a very long story. I'm kind of curious, because,

Andrew Stotz 03:59
you know, if I was just rereading the book, and you know, your, your latest edition, which I believe was 2015. And, you know, this is no small feat. You know, though your methodology is simple and all that you've definitely put in a lot of time into it. As I read that I really feel that and Mike, my question to you is like, you know, like, when was the time when it all kind of came together like this is because I see you when I look at you from the book and what I've learned it's really kind of unifying, like nothing left behind everything is in there and that that's not an easy feat. There's a lot of times that you know, you can't connect this one with that one or just kind of curious about that time when it started to really all come together.

David Allen 04:50
No, no. I didn't wake up one morning but all this you know, to me, it was a long number of years of string of pitha net Oh, there's something Oh, that's a cool thing. That's a cool thing. And then at some point, it began to, to merge or unfold as an intact methodology. But I can't tell you exactly when that was, you know, it was a developmental process. Yet, a lot of it having to do with this 1000s of hours, I spent one on one desk side with some of the best and brightest people you'd ever meet, you know, working this methodology with them, because we do training in their company, and then the senior people would want me to come sit down side with them and help them implement what this was.

Andrew Stotz 05:35
And you were like, going back home and thinking, Okay, I need to modify this a little bit and make this that that wasn't so clear.

David Allen 05:42
No, it was really more every time I did it, I learned something. I still do. If I'm still coaching anybody, I still learn something. Wow, that's a whole different way to think about that, that I hadn't said that that way before. So it was really a long developmental process really, for myself. At some point, I said, Okay, I guess I guess I've know enough about it and trusted enough to write the manual. And that's what I wrote the book.

Andrew Stotz 06:07
And one last thing from my side is just that I recently went through all the books I can find on time management and goal setting and all that stuff. And, you know, there's a long lineage of this topic. And when I get to your book, in that kind of fun lecture that I do, it kind of it's interesting that nobody before you kind of connected into this unifying theory, you know, some people were interested in the way you set a goal. And some people were interested in the way you complete your tasks. And others were interested in the way you've set a vision of what you want. But I'm just curious, why do you think that some of these very brilliant people didn't put it all together? Like you did?

David Allen 06:50
No idea. It was as much a surprise to me as anybody else. You know, as I said, I thought that a lot more sophisticated people making a lot more money than I'd ever make in my lifetime would have already figured this out. Turned out just the opposite. It turns out that those people were the most interested in what I don't cover. Yeah, well, that most, it's the most productive people that are most interested in what I do. Which is fascinating. You know, because they, they already know the value of system, they already know the value of organization, they already know the value of focus, they, that's how they got to where they are. And the problem is they're up to here. And they filled, they, they're their own systematic processes haven't kept up with their own aspirations and visions. And so they've overrun themselves. And so they just they know, if they had more room, they can create more cool stuff. And so, you know, what I developed with something to give more room. Yeah. So could have fooled me. Yeah.

Andrew Stotz 07:48
Well, for the listeners out there, I highly recommend you get the book, if you haven't gotten the book. And you learn about it, I know that there's also a workbook, I think I saw, I was looking at the bookstore, and I was kind of debating whether to get the workbook or the book and I decided to go back.

David Allen 08:03
Well, Android Come on the book itself is a little daunting, it is 25 years of my career that I've just packaged into a manual because I got run over by bus at some point, somebody might figure this out. But in case I get run over by the bus, at least somebody could pick up the book and learn what I'd learned in my 25 or 30 years, you know, doing this kind of work. And, you know, so that's kind of why I wrote it. I had high anticipation, but no expectation, I had no idea whether the book would be successful. Even back then there was quite a noisy space out there time management and personal organization and all that stuff. In 2001, when the first edition came out, and I had no idea that it would hit a nerve. And it turns out, it didn't.

Andrew Stotz 08:50
So last thing on that is just that, for the listeners out there, they haven't gotten the book, and they may not be able to go get it right away. And you know, they're sitting in at their home in Bangladesh, or in Australia, or in the US or in what would be like, kind of the one thing, one or two things that you would give them advice that, you know, do this think this way, you know, from your own experience, while if you say it's the kind of the one or two things that would be valuable to them.

David Allen 09:19
Stop using your head as your office, it's a crappy office, your brain did not evolve to remember, remind, prioritize and manage relationships between the four things. Otherwise, you'll some optimize your ability to take a test or think that's now new cognitive science data. That's been proven in the last 10 years. I discovered that on the street 35 years ago. So basically, stop using your head, get everything out of your head. And then on some regular basis, do some sort of reflection or review of the whole Gestalt of all your commitment. It's like simple, it's kind of a big duck. But boy, you know, people just don't have the time and don't take the time to do what I just said. They think i don't i Keep it in my head that works. And they think I don't need to review all my stuff. I'm too busy.

Andrew Stotz 10:07
There it is. Well, I appreciate that. Well, now it's time to share your worst investment ever. And since no one ever goes into their worst investment thinking it will be tell us a bit about the circumstances leading up to it, then tell us your story.

David Allen 10:20
I was writing my third book, making it all work, winning at the game of work in the business of life. And if anybody's ever written a book, believe me, it's funny, I could become an alcoholic writing a book about stress, free productivity, just trying to just put it all together. Anyway. So I was trying to write a book at the time. And, you know, our work, I never done any marketing or sales. So all we did was pick up the phone, it was all referral based stuff, I have no idea what marketing myth, are you whatever. And by that time, you know, I had a group of almost 50 people just because of trying to keep up with client demand in terms of training and coaching that we were doing. And, you know, I said, I'm, I'm up to here, I need some help. And I didn't quite frankly, know how to run a company. I'm not a really good manager, I'm not the best player for that play. You know, I'm too impatient. And, and, you know, so I said, Okay, I need to find somebody to help, who can take the reins, and particularly with a sales and marketing background, because that seemed to be what we needed at the time. So bottom line, I hired the wrong guy. So it looked good, I was pressed up against the wall, he had a great resume, he was close by, seemed to be kind of right, got to do it. And had to make a quick decision because he had another offer, you know, for him to come in. And he said, David, when you gotta decide quick, you know, whatever, or I'm going to take the other offer. And so I decided quick, and I did not do enough sufficient due diligence, to find out whether the guy was really the right guy or not. And that took three years and was very expensive and hard to deal with, in terms of it just didn't match the DNA of our culture. And I didn't know that. And I didn't take the time to figure that out. It wasn't sophisticated enough, though, that, and also, it was more like giving up the job. Look, instead of trying to learn how to do this myself, let me go find somebody who seems to already know how to do it. And so I sort of gave up my own accountability to, to figure it out, you know, how do you how do you run a company? How do you manage all that? So you're gonna have a short version of a long story, but,

Andrew Stotz 12:46
and that was, when was it that you kind of came to the realization that, okay, this really isn't gonna work

David Allen 12:53
he was doing, he was making side deals, under the table with salespeople and other things like that. He was he was, and it was not he was, there was a lack of transparency. And a lack of, you know, there was a, he was just, you know, working his stick. And that stick did not match with the DNA of our culture. It wasn't how we operated. And so to start to recognize that and then recognize, you know, just didn't work. So. Yeah,

Andrew Stotz 13:26
so how, how would you describe the lessons that you learn from that?

David Allen 13:33
Don't be pressured to make decisions, because of a time pressure. You know, it's, it's funny, because sometimes you have to, you've got to time pressure, you've got to, you've got to think to do you have to make that decision. Now, you know, I'm involved in, you know, for 10 years, we've been doing something called holacracy. And like, sort of running our company as a self organizing organization. And one of the principles is basically avoid decisions to the last responsible moment. Which is a pregnant statement, avoid decisions to the last responsible moment. So don't jump the gun, and you know, those those are, those are the biggest mistakes that I've made is jumping the gun simply because I felt I was pressured to have to make those decisions when, in truth, I wasn't and I was just avoiding, you know, stepping up to the plate and, and, you know, growing up myself in terms of what I needed to learn, to manage things.

Andrew Stotz 14:34
And for the people that don't know what a holacracy is, can you just describe Besides, obviously, that statement is one about decisions. But what's the objective of that?

David Allen 14:44
It's basically how do you create an organizational mind like water? How do you create an organization that recognizes tensions as soon as they show up wherever they show up, and get them resolved as quickly as possible as low level as possible to that You know, there's a number of a number of self self organizing models that have shown up in the last five or 10 years, you know, and it's probably one of the most popular. And, you know, it's really about how do you, like we don't have any, we don't have titles, we just have accountabilities and roles. You know, and those roles are very clear. And from the who's accountable for what, and, you know, something shows up out there, there's a fast and easy and quick way to, to engage with it, and not let it lie fallow. And then ultimately stink, you know, and take up more room than it should,

Andrew Stotz 15:35
nevermind the dead body in the back of the office over there. And just curious, like, for the listeners out there that are curious, and they're looking for different ideas? What type of organization or type of business does this suit or type of personalities, this kind of, you know, method suit, do you think?

David Allen 15:54
Only somebody who owns the business and once the business is willing to give it up? And let the business run itself? So if you still have ego invested, and I'm the boss, and you know, and I make the final decisions, and no matter what, as opposed to let the people who really need to make the decisions, and they're gonna make it work, do it. So that's that that's a rare, that's a rare breed, to find. So it's not for everybody. Yeah, for anybody, but it's not for everybody, because not a lot of business owners or boards or, or stockholders or whatever that are willing to give up their control, to let the people who are running the organization and really making the organization work, let them run it and make the decisions about it.

Andrew Stotz 16:42
How do you spell that? h o l? Whole lock? h o LOCRACY? Okay, I'm just looking while we're talking. Hold on one second.

David Allen 16:52
Yeah. Brian Robertson, Brian Robertson wrote the book. You know, I wrote the foreword to it. So if you can look that up, you'll you'll see holacracy one was the company that

Andrew Stotz 17:06
got it, we're gonna put that in the show notes. I want to look at it myself. So maybe I'll just share a couple things that I take away. You know, I think the first thing you talked about is the pressure. And, you know, one thing you learn when you're in sales, is you put pressure on people to say, hey, Time's running out. I mean, there's only so much left, I'm going to increase the price next month. And all those tactics are sometimes real, and sometimes just tactics. And I think, you know, your story reminds me that whenever you feel pressure, it's okay to step back. And you know, that, you know, there's another train coming, there's another opportunity coming, I think that's, you know, the first thing that I think of the second thing from your story that I get is that, I know that feeling of just being desperate, in some ways, I'm overloaded, I need someone to take care of this, it's really, you know, I can envision how my life is going to be better when that person takes care of it. And when I'm so I see that this is such a solution for me, it's so easy to, to not do the due diligence, or just skip the steps, because I just so hungry for that outcome. And I think those are the two things that I really take away from it is anything you would add to that?

David Allen 18:25
No, take a breath, relax, you know, do your point. The opportunities are infinite. And don't think you know, that train may be leaving, but there might be a better train coming. And I don't know how you teach yourself to trust that. I don't have an answer for that, Andrea? No, come on. I think I think, you know, my wife has been one of my best coaches forever. You know, I just said, Look, David, you've just made the decision too fast. You know, you shouldn't live let yourself be pressured by that. And there were better things coming. And there are other things that you need to look at, and take advantage of, and whatever. But to your point, I was up to here. And I said, You know, I need breathing space. And so seemed like somebody to do and, you know, it's hard to to denigrate the rungs of the ladder that got you where you are. So I love my life. I love my lifestyle. I love what's happened here. So, you know, I

Andrew Stotz 19:33
have to God bless. You know, the guy that was my wrong call, but I learned a lot in the process. Yeah, you know, again, it was expensive, but a lesson well learned. Well, I'm just thinking about the young people out there that are listening to this podcast that are under a lot of stress right now and they see some opportunity they think is going to relieve that stress, and maybe it will, maybe it won't, and I want to think about them. When I asked you to Question based on what you learn from that story and what you continue to learn what one action would you recommend other listeners take to avoid suffering the same fate?

David Allen 20:08
Relax, take a breath. And make sure that you're building in some reflective process for yourself on your life. You know, whether that's the weekly review, which I teach in my methodology, or just some sort of a step back. And, you know, don't let yourself be, you know, it's like forest management, instead of tree hugging, basically need to go up every once in a while and look around the forest and see which tree you need to hug next. The problem is, if you're just a tree hugger, and the fire lands in your tree, you know, you're you're dead, you know, as opposed to wait a minute, let me go up and see that smoke showing up over there. And therefore, let me do X, Y, and Z. So some sort of reflection process, some sort of a, you could call it strategy could call it, whatever. But if nothing else, you'd go for yourself good glass of wine and step back and stop. And think, I know thinking is one of the toughest things that people ever have to learn how to do.

Andrew Stotz 21:07
That makes me go back to the beginning of a whole conversation, maybe that's part of the reason why people don't clear their mind is because if you clear your mind, now you got to think.

David Allen 21:18
And you have to, you actually have to think to clear your mind. So it works both ways. You actually have to make decisions about the stuff that has your attention, which requires thinking, What is this thing? Should we adopt? Should we get divorced? Should I fix this tooth that hurts? You know? Should we get the puppy? You know, for the kids? You know, should I give the kids karate lessons, you know, all that stuff? You know, those things that banging around in our head that have people's attention? That is basically taking up all that cognitive real estate? There is a way to get rid of it, but you don't get rid of it by drinking, you're meditating. I know I do both. But you actually, you actually have to sit down and think what does that mean? What I'm going to do about that? Where do I park that? How do I build my personal, external brain that I trust, that can keep track of all this level? All these multiple levels of commitments, I've gotten myself in life and be able to step back and see that from a larger perspective. Yeah, interesting. I just said a mouthful, by the way. So that's a

Andrew Stotz 22:18
lot to think about. Speaking, I'm thinking, Well, last question, what's your number one goal for the next 12 months?

David Allen 22:26
Stay alive. learn Dutch, immigrate to the Netherlands. big goals there. And you know, I'm still doing I mean, I'll be 76 this year. And, you know, I'm still, but you know, our mission is to create a world where people perceive problems as projects. So that's, you know, we're barely made a dent in that. So anything I can do to help support the network of trainers and coaches and licensees, we've been around the world now delivering this, this work. And so I'm still doing that, I still continue to do that. I have no big. Okay, my bit next year, we need to make x, y, z, as my next year, let's stay alive. Stay well, you know, and then just manage this thing as well as we can. And so that's just an ongoing sort of stylistic, not so much a goal, but just a stylistic standard, you know, that I have about keeping on keeping on keeping up, you know, and like you ask, so I do that I do two, three podcasts a week. Still have? I've done about 3000 since 2001. Amazing. I can't stop talking about this or sharing it. So that's it.

Andrew Stotz 23:36
Yeah. Well, listeners, there you have it another story of loss to keep you winning. My number one goal for the next 12 months is to help you mind listener, reduce risk and increase return in your life. To achieve this, I've created our community at my worst investment. ever.com. I look forward to seeing you there. As we conclude, David, I want to thank you again for coming on the show. And on behalf of a Stotz Academy, my little, little little Academy, I hereby award you alumni status for turning your worst investment ever into your best teaching moment. Do you have any parting words for the audience? No, just relax. Stay focused and be healthy. Be safe. Fantastic. And that's a wrap on another great story to help us create, grow and protect our well fellow risk takers. This is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz saying. I'll see you on the upside.