Ep378: Ian Moyse – Do Your Due Diligence When You Really Need That Job

Andrew Stotz 00:02
Hello fellow risk takers and welcome to my worst investment ever stories of loss to keep you winning in our community. We know that the winning investing you must take risk but to win big, you've got to reduce it. And I bet you're exposed to investment risks right now to reduce it go to my worst investment ever.com and download the risk reduction checklist I've made specifically for you my podcast listens. Based on the lessons I've learned from all of my guests, fellow risk takers, this is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz, from a Stotz Academy and I'm here with featured guests in Moyes in Are you ready to rock?

Ian Moyse 00:40
I certainly am. Hopefully, I'm not the worst podcast guest to Oh, you

Andrew Stotz 00:45
definitely won't be. I was once a guest on my own show. So you're safe. Good. Well, let me just tell the audience a little bit about you, is chief Revenue Officer at one of sales and has sat on the boards of a number of industry bodies such as the Federation against software theft, cloud industry forum, Euro cloud, he was awarded the accolade of best my UK Sales Director of the year and was listed in the top 50 sales keynote speakers by the top sales world and was rated number one cloud influencer Analytica and has been recognized as a leading cloud blogger. And its use utilized by a range of global brands as a cloud computing thought leader, my goodness in take a minute and fill in for the tidbits about your life.

Ian Moyse 01:38
I wonder what I hear I always think No, no, I've got no time makes feels right. So yeah, so I, all that stuff. I think I've been lucky in some things that opportunity has presented itself through putting myself out there. So I volunteer for a lot of things such as this. And thank you for taking the opportunity to speak with me. And I think by putting yourself out there and giving back opportunity also comes to you. So there's a nugget of advice. I started writing blogs and in bits and pieces years ago as part of the day job, and then started to get asked, could you do this? Could you do that? I volunteered for school speaking and slowly, I got more adept at writing content or speaking and become this influence over five or six major global brands in the cloud computing area. And if you'd said to me 10 years ago, that would happen? Or what would you do to achieve that, as I wouldn't even know where to start. So there's lots of accidents, but probably created by giving back and making effort trying hard. And doing the right stuff, stuff in your day job and just stretching yourself putting yourself out there to stuff that you wouldn't normally do. And I've said I've suggested this to others and seeing them suddenly find the same. We've all got expertise, we've all got an experience. give something back.

Andrew Stotz 03:01
It's great point. And I have a little story I want to share about that. From my experience. I was president of CFA society for Chartered Financial Analysts here in Thailand. And it's a voluntary, you know, organization, you know, we have about 500 members, and nobody has time, you know, so everybody's super busy. So it's very hard to corral people together to help do events, whatever. But there was a young guy, and his name was note, his nickname was known. And note basically said, Hey, I'll volunteer to, you know, get involved. And he helped with what we call the CFA research challenge. And he did a great job and all that. And I didn't even realize that he hadn't actually passed, the CA hadn't gotten the CFA designation, he had passed level three of the three exams. And then when I learned that, like, Wow, that's pretty impressive. You know, like, just as to volunteer before you were like, officially a CFA charterholders. And it's a lesson I always tell people, because if you're, you know, trying to get into an organization like that, sometimes you can get in pretty easily. And in those types of organizations, you got a lot of high power people, but they don't have a lot of time. So you can get involved in the people that are leading it are leaders in the industry, so know, spend time with myself and others. And then he got his CFA charter, and he came to see me says, I want to be on the board. And I thought, wow, that's kind of interesting. And I mean, he's young. But he demonstrated his willingness to work on the projects that we had. And that was really a criteria for getting on the board. So he ended up being a relatively young guy and getting on the board and he's contributed tremendously so I think the lesson I was thinking about, you know, when we're older, let's say we have expertise to give and all that but when you're younger, you may not have as much expertise but give a little time

Ian Moyse 04:46
and I've always said it, you know, a lot of people I talked to talk about they were more money or do such and such several work harder now do this, do this. We're not doing that to me pay me Well, you won't get it then those are the people who never get it. What I've always done is worked as I'm already doing the job or earning the salary, I want to have behaved that way. Now, from what I've learned, inevitably it comes to you, people spot what you're doing. That's how I got my first promotion was by working incredibly hard than I needed to, and then went so that when an opportunity came for a more senior role, they have no choice but to at least consider me if not give it to me, because I'm already doing it. I'm already proving it. How can you not consider me not? I'd like to be considered I could do it. I showed you.

Andrew Stotz 05:33
Beautiful. Yeah, it's a great point. I mean, people, leaders in businesses want to pay people to do those jobs. And if you can show that you can do it. You know, I mean, obviously, there's some cheaters out there. But generally, there's people just want to pay it because they want that job done. So great advice. All right. Well, now it's time to share your worst investment ever since no one ever goes into their worst investment thinking and will be. Tell us a bit about the circumstances leading up to an Intel is your story. Yeah,

Ian Moyse 06:01
sure. It's a slightly different one than the money investment, although I guess we've all learned different things where we failed there. So I thought about this. And I thought, what was the biggest thing we all have, that we invest that can be wasted, and you can't get more of less time. So the biggest investment I made was a choice, which I'll cover in a second, which wasted a whole bunch of my time, they could argue I learned from it. So we're talking about what the plus here's where I guess at the end, that I chose a number of years ago, not so far back, but not not, too recently. I was in the unfortunate circumstance of being between jobs. I've been a number of businesses that have been acquired or has been redundancies, etc. And right now, I'm sure there are a lot of people listening, who can recognize this problem either themselves or with friends and family COVID pascall had a devastating effect on a lot of people's lives through no fault of their own, in terms of they've been furloughed, or they've lost their job. And I've spoken to many people in that situation, because I just in the wrong sector, or in the wrong company that's been affected by what's happened. So I was in that situation. So you need a job. When you need a job, there's a you have a different window, depending on your financial circumstance, you'll have a different window of At what point does it become a necessity, it might be Oh, I could last three or four months I could others might be I need something immediately. Because I just cover bills, we all have different situations and different periods of our life. So I had a little bit of a window. But what you don't want to do is be out there too long looking at all this. So I was interviewing, needed a job and found an opportunity, which is not perfect for me, I thrive in smaller businesses and helping them grow. It's exactly what I'm doing. Now I've done it five or six times very successfully. I've done them accelerate into a growth position and become a bigger firm. So it looked ideal. And I'm not going to name names to protect the innocent. But that would the founders met with all the key people. And it was a family business. And it looked at face value like this is great, I'm getting on with them the report is good. And this could be the step if they needed someone to come in and reignite a business that have been stagnant on revenue for a number of years. So I took the role, needed a job took the role. And in the end, I was there nine months I built a team recruited people in to be around me. So now involving other people's decisions, important decisions in their life, right? When I'm working at work, I've built a team of about nine people. And that's the point we started to realize there was some cracks in this, in that there was dysfunction in the family. There was incredible politics for a small company. That meant you couldn't change things. So my job was to fix this piece. So my job what I'm good at doing, but that involve change. That involves assimilating a situation. And then changing things. If you keep doing the same thing, the old adage, keep doing the same thing. Don't expect to get different results. And as soon as I wanted to change things, you can't change them. With so and so's idea, we can't change it. We don't think that needs changing. Well, that needs some money to change. Yeah, we're not doing that. Okay. And then it became also emotional and political in the family. And the culture in the business was quite toxic. So I've now not only put myself in this situation, but I've brought other people into it good people, which I felt responsible for. So my style of management is I'm a servant leader, where I have a duty of care to my employees to help them be successful. And also to protect them in the environment. They're in that they can. You know, I always look, look at earning, earning and learning I my job is to help them be successful, and earn money to learn and develop their own skill set in their career. And the yearning is enjoy coming to work. Yeah. But be in an environment where you want to be. Do you want to work hard through not being told to because you genuinely invest? Because you're enjoying it? And you believe? Well, that was something I couldn't support there. So, you know, what's the mistake I've made in this investment of my time, and all these other people was, I had not done enough diligence on making the decision to invest in this job in this selection. And the learning exercise, I think, is when you're in a position of, you're in a job, you might do more, you're more you can be more choosy. I think when you're in a position of you need a job, you can get excited, you can get blinkered at the opposite of what's out there. So these people really want you they sound great, you know, I do enough diligence. Did I do enough research to qualify out and say, Actually, I'm going to turn it down. That's a harder decision to make when you're not in a job. Right? And that's the position a lot of people are going to be in right now. Have it at face value, it looks great. And I need a job. Oh, thank God, I've got a job I've got a job offer is, How hard is it to look below the surface? How hard is it to see the negatives of something, when you're so elated when you so needed that and it's a lifeline. I think that's the big learning lesson is think very carefully about a role you're going to take because I know people may need the money and will put up with things. And some sort of necessity will overtake that. But what you don't want to do is be in a toxic environment, which will affect your mental health, which will affect the people around you, your your home, you know, your job is a big part of your your life, obviously, and put you in a position where you need to look for another job. And I think there's a big danger coming out of COVID. And I had to make a conscious decision to leave there. So and a lot of my team did so a lot of us exited in less than a year, you then have a difficult position to explain to the next employer. Why didn't you stay there very long. Right? So you've got to get back to that there's that tipping point of you don't want to be a job Hopper, you don't want a negative on your CV. But likewise, they don't want to be here. Now, if I'd made you know, with hindsight, would I have looked more carefully at other opportunities I had, when I've worked harder on others I'd had. And when I've just turned this one down, regardless, could I have found this out beforehand? You know, hindsight is a wonderful thing. I don't know the answers to those things now. But, but I regret having accepted that job. And having had that toxicity of experience. The only positive I look at is I learned from it that I can talk about this story now. And think, Okay, what do I look for in the future because of what I've been through

Andrew Stotz 13:29
now. So maybe I'll summarize some things I take away from your story. I think that the first thing is that what I call it in this world of startup, but also in this, you know, you know, when you're looking for a job, I call it chasing revenue. And in many startups, you know, you think, Okay, I'm gonna, we're gonna knock it out of the park, and everybody's gonna line up to buy our product or service or software or whatever, but and then nobody shows up and you think, Okay, what can we do to bring money into the door now. And, and, and then you find yourself jumping from this to that, this that. And you know, if you're lucky, you survive through that point. And then you regroup. And then you refocus on what you think is the core. But you do have this time where you're chasing revenue. And I think the thing that I take away from your story is, realize your vulnerability at that time. And when you realize that you're vulnerable, use that as a tool to kind of put a little bit more thought into what you're committing to maybe putting in a little bit more effort than you normally would. Because you know, you're vulnerable. And you're in a position where you could be willing to overlook something, and to not even do the due diligence because I just, I can't afford it. And, you know, I will also say after going through all of my episodes and all of my stories that have been submitted to me and told to me, I can tell you that there's six common mistakes and the number one most common mistake steak is failed to do their research. And here the due diligence aspect of it. And I think, you know, my question that I had in my mind as you talk, is it did you not do your due diligence? Or do you decided I can't afford to do due diligence? I've got to take this.

Ian Moyse 15:16
I think I was blink. I think it's interesting. You highlighted that way of the six points. And you know what, my job and what I've worked with people on is qualifying customers, qualifying, I'll be the right fit to bring value to them that they'll get long term success with us. And then complicated as a key part of it. I think you can get blinkered and I think, the way you've said that makes me think salespeople get Blinken, when it's the golden deal they want. You know, my job as a sales leader is to question them as well. Why is it Why are we going to win this? Why is it right for the customer? Often people get blinkered because not big, I think not because they don't want to know, they're so enthusiastic, they're so focused on the outcome, they hit, oh, I've got a job. I've got a job offer, or they want me or the customer is going to buy. They don't want to ask the other questions subconsciously, because it might expose something that takes away their success feeling right? Oh, we're gonna win this sale, you're going to win this. And then I go, what about this, this, this and this? And we don't know the answer the big risk. It's not, it's not the 90% chance you think it is. But that's good. Let's now go and look at those things. It might be 90%. But you're assuming it is you're not doing it based on full diligence. Due diligence, we might still be in the same position. But we know then why we're in that position, as opposed to assuming it. And I think you're absolutely right. I didn't do my diligence, not because I consciously chose not to, because subconsciously, after God for that got a job. I feel like the headline stuff makes me blinker myself

Andrew Stotz 17:00
now. And it's interesting in the realm of sales, like for anybody that's had to return a product, return a service, you know, refund money, and realize, okay, this really wasn't right for that customer. It really, you know, what, what you're talking about is the idea that, you know, there's nothing better than selling a solution for a customer, and they really appreciate it. And you know, from a sales perspective, if you show that commitment to them, and then and then you walk away, and you say, look, I just think this is probably not right for you at this moment in time, they're gonna, they're gonna trust you more. And when that moment in time comes, who they're going to call, they're gonna call you.

Ian Moyse 17:43
So Chris's job is not to sell. It's a difficult one, when you think about it is to sell things, but it's not to sell things to the wrong customer. It's to put the prospective customer in a safe environment, where they trust that you're going to sell them the right thing, like time and no product or services, the right is right, every prospect and customer every time when for every situation. So there's got to be some walk away from this adage of, I want to win everything, right? No, you should want to win everything where the customer will get value from what you're selling them. Therefore, you should want to win those ones where it's the right fit, where it's not their waste each other's time.

Andrew Stotz 18:29
A lot of lessons there. Alright, so based upon what you learn from this story, and I want to frame this question by thinking of that young man or woman out there, who is struggling right now, they are looking for a job, they've gotten a job. We know they're vulnerable, they know they're vulnerable. They're listening to this podcast, what? What one actually, would you recommend they do to avoid suffering the same fate?

Ian Moyse 18:54
So I think do more more diligence than you would normally do? And the beauty is that there's more opportunity to do it than ever before because of the web. Many years ago, it was really hard. Now, you can so here's some quick quick things I can check online. Who you connected with LinkedIn is a beautiful tool for that, who you connected with that might have a connection with that business? Who knows someone through some connection, it might give you some context for who you used to work there. Oh my gosh, Jeff, I used to work with or Sue that except I used to get a cut whatever, no someone there or used to work there. Get some context number one, look at Glassdoor but take it with a pinch of salt. Glassdoor is a often for large organizations, but employees write reviews on that. And it's like anything like Amazon does good and bad at any company, but just look at the trends in there. Look online for customer reviews. There's if it's a technology product, there are sites like jeetu crowd, there are sites like I think there's a Gartner one got I think it's good insights but where you can look at the company or product name and put reviews or industry. And they are often they'll come up, there's a capterra, there's a review site, and there'll be customer reviews. What does that look? There's so much rich insight you can get rather than going just to their website. Have a look at their employees, if it's a smaller business, what how long have employees been there? And in the process is an easy one in the process? Have you ever asked them really like to look at this firm? I want to be the right fit for you and vice versa? Can I speak to all the team members that I've worked with? Can I speak to somebody who isn't in the hiring process? at our company, right, right now from Andrew, what up? What we do is I've got two people going through this today, incidentally, who may join my team. I've got them talking to other members of the company, what are the hiring process, but who are just in other departments or jumping on a call to get a culture of they're not just for us, but for the individual? And I've said you can ask them anything you like they've been here several years. What's it like to work in? What's your like? What any question you want to ask them. You're talking a lot of people in the business is who'd worked with to find out where you are. And it gives you that feel? And if a business refuses that, that might be a signal in itself. Why might they let you talk to people, when they talk to the other person, someone else in the accounts team, or someone else in the support team or in sales that you get to work with? Do you just have a chat? Not interview? He just want to talk to him about what's the contract? What did you do? And I can see you've been there three years? Would you like? What's your what's your bugbears which niggles? And let them be transparent, that I'm telling the systems a bit clunky, and things take a bit longer? And because they're going to find out when they join Anyway, now,

21:47
it's interesting.

Andrew Stotz 21:49
That's a great suggestion. And you know, for the listeners out there, you know, you go in interview with a company, and they feel comfortable saying, Well, I'd like you to meet with some more staff, you know, if they're able, and you know, they want to do that. And then there's nothing wrong with you saying, you know, and you request in that. So I think that's really great. And it's actionable advice. So last question, what's your number one goal for the next 12 months?

Ian Moyse 22:11
So I guess, I mean, I, there's so many things I've got to do in the business. I mean, we've gotten really exciting time. But let me let me, let me pick this one, if I may, because I think this one gets overlooked. And it's the last 12 months and to the troubles after is always be learning. I think people, they get to a position and I'm in a senior role or senior position, have hired some young people recently. And I said to them, I got a lot of experience, I can mentor you and help you, etc. But I'm also going to learn from you, because you've been through a different journey and a different experience than I have. So I still learn from the people around me and take this content, what I learned 1015 years ago might not be relevant anymore. Right? The world has changed, the buyers change, we've got the age of the internet, we've got COVID disrupted and my businesses pivot and processes pivot. So we live in a changing world. So my thing is, always be learning and be willing to take on new ideas and learn not just because you've done it 10 times before it's right the 11th time, someone else who hasn't got as much experience as you and isn't as blinkered as you into this repeated mode, may come up with something that rocks your world and changes it and be prepared to change and change again. World it could be more though that, you know, anyone that interviews with me and demonstrates that they've had to adapt and change, are they and they're still learning and they're still enthusiastic about learning things. Well, aren't you attracted to that type of

23:47
beggar?

Ian Moyse 23:48
You got to change things in your business? You got to change, right? Yep. So once somebody is adapt to change, not someone who's, everything's got to be the same way all the time. Those are two values that intrinsically are going to have more value. So again, but as we move onward, if you can demonstrate your ability to continually learn and adapt, you are going to be more valuable as an employee to organizations as we move forward. And that's,

Andrew Stotz 24:15
it's a great, it's a great reminder, and I'm going to I'm going to pull up something here on the video. So for the listeners, you won't be able to see it, but I'll tell you, I'm reaching, you know, you can see already behind my desk is a lot of books, but I'm gonna reach over on my desk here and get something and it's a stack of books that I've been reading related to sales. And there you go

24:41
about moving.

Andrew Stotz 24:42
Yeah. And these are some of the books I've been reading and you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a finance guy. So I don't know anything about sales. So, you know, I want to learn and recently I started to do a one hour webinar called don't read these 36 books on goal setting. Because I've already read them for you. And I and their books that I've read over the years, but also I've had to kind of refresh my mind. But what

Ian Moyse 25:14
just the idea of creating that, you know, creating that one hour content is, you know, valuable. So I think this is also very valuable advice. And that is that here's the problem, though, the people listening to this, probably already are in that mode, because they're listening to this is the people that need to hear this message, or the people that aren't listening to podcasts, webinars, etc. Because they think they know it all. And invariably, that's their fault, right? They don't know it all. They think they're the smartest person in the room, where you don't want to be the smartest person in the room, because everyone's learning from you, and you're getting no value.

Andrew Stotz 25:56
So listen up, ladies and gentlemen, and grab a friend and bring him in. Well, listeners, there you have it another story of loss to keep you winning. My number one goal for the next 12 months is to help you mind listening to reduce risk in your life. So go to my worst investment ever.com right now, and download the risk reduction checklist and see how you measure as we conclude and I want to thank you again for coming on the show. And on behalf of a Stotz Academy, I hereby award you alumni status for turning your worst investment in the year your best teaching moment. Do you have any parting words for the audience?

Ian Moyse 26:35
I think just good luck to the year ahead. And no matter what situation you're in, be positive I know it's not always easy work. I've always thought you can graft your way out of anything. So isn't good around you work hard and getting a job is a job in itself treated us so that's what I did. That's my biggest advice for someone looking for a job is work extremely hard at it like that is your job you're being paid to do that will pay dividends

Andrew Stotz 27:05
beautiful. Well, that's a wrap on another great story to help us create, grow and protect our well fellow risk takers. This is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz saying. I'll see you on the upside.