Ep357: Matt Franklin – If You Are Young, Consider Buying a House Right Now

Andrew Stotz 00:02
Hello fellow risk takers and welcome to my worst investment ever stories of loss to keep you winning in our community. We know that to win in investing, you must take risk, but to win big, you've got to reduce it. And I bet you're exposed to investment risk right now. Do reduce it, go to my worst investment ever.com and download the risk reduction checklist I've made specifically for you my podcast listeners, based on the lessons I've learned from all of my guests, fellow risk takers, this is your worst podcast hosts Andrew Stotz, from a Stotz Academy, and I'm here with feature gets Matt Franklin, Matt, are you ready to rock?

Matt Franklin 00:45
I am absolutely ready.

Andrew Stotz 00:47
I'm really excited to have you on and you and I have had a chance to get to know each other a little bit before we turn on the recorder. And I really appreciate that. And I want to tell the audience a little bit about you. So here it comes. Mad Franklin, and a friend developed a goofy little invention to help people improve their postures. And ladies and gentlemen, I need that invention. Darn it. The minute I read that I thought I think I need that. Once they had sold more than $100,000 worth of that product. They found themselves in the shark tank. Yes, that Shark Tank ladies and gentlemen. And after that appearance, things blew up temporarily. And they made pretty good dough. The company posture now still operates. To this day. Matt also runs his video production business bottle rocket labs, and has found a new obsession of learning about investing and preparing for retirement. He shares what he is learning on his rogue retirement lounge podcast, which you can find on Apple podcasts. And I'm sure other platforms but even better, you can go to www dot rogue retirement lounge.com. To learn more, as well as go to the show notes here. Matt, take a minute and filling for the tidbits about your life.

Matt Franklin 02:12
All right. Well, Andrew, thank you for the introduction. Yeah, I am a lifelong entrepreneur. And I have all the little cliche stories from childhood. You know, the lemonade stand, starting a car washing business, picking blackberries and into high school selling weed. And peach, I did all the lessons, did you a good way to make money I made a lot more selling weed than I did sell like blackberries. And let's see what else. Yeah, I taught guitar lessons. And then I kind of went to work in the normal workforce and got some ad agency jobs and some marketing jobs. And then, in 2006, when it was announced that Google was going to buy YouTube for $1.65 billion, I very quickly wrote up a resignation letter and went into my boss's office and put it down and I said, Hey, Larry, love you. But I'm giving you 30 days notice, because this whole web video thing, I believe is going to turn into something. And he's like, good, I mean, go for it and wish you the best of luck. And so I started a little video production business. And that's kind of what I've been doing full time up until a few years ago. And now it's kind of a part time job. And, and it turns out that web video became kind of a big thing. And I have done projects for Intel, Microsoft, Hewlett Packard companies like that all over the world. And when I did start that business, I decided that I was never going to be a really great technician or a really great videographer, I was never going to come to work with a Bray and an eyepatch and try to be a director and sit on a director's chair. And I wasn't really that interested in the art, I was more interested really, and just kind of making a living and doing kind of cool stuff. And so I decided that my strategic advantage was going to be that I was going to be friendly. And I was going to be on time. And I was not going to be flaky, and I was going to be fun and I was going to be cool. And I was going to over deliver and it paid off. And when people tell me that they're starting a business, you know, what should I do? I say well, if you really invest in being awesome, and really get your, I guess your emotional intelligence up and learn how to deal with people. I don't care. I don't care what you do if you're if you're a plumber, but if you are a welder, if you are a consultant, if you are a financial planner, if you are really good with people, you're going to succeed. And as an example, I had a client, fly me to Germany twice, to India, and to Japan to shoot like half day interviews, okay, and those, I can guarantee you that there are videographers in Japan, I can guarantee there. And so that, and, and, and again, I never really became like a great artist, but I show up on time, I'm easy to travel with, and that whole strategy really kind of paid off. So Napoleon Hill calls that having a pleasing personality. And, and I've worked with a lot of people who are difficult. And I can guarantee that those difficult people are going to have less success just for that they may be the best at what they do. But if they're difficult, or if they have attitude in the email, or if they just, you know, or they show up late, they're not going to be as successful as someone who's school.

Andrew Stotz 06:13
Yeah, it's, it's so true, you know, we want to work with people that are reliable, you know, and that we enjoy working with, I would give a shout out in this to a woman named Cecilia, Ricardo, Ricardo, and she, she basically has done all of my, all of the production work for this podcast. And she has a small podcast production company, and for anybody listening, that wants to go into podcasting. You know, just give me a shout out. And I will introduce you to her. But the one thing about her that I really have been impressed about is she just made it so easy to work with her. You know, is she the best? I mean, I'm sure there's, there's better and there's more technically, whatever. But everything, she's never dropped the ball. And she's always been pleasant. And anytime they say, Hey, can we get the podcast on Audible or something like that? Boom, she's on it. And she gets it done. And so I really, really think that you're given a real Golden Nugget here. For people who are running businesses or want to have their own businesses, it's not about being technically the best. It's about bringing value to your client in a way that really takes away trouble from them and helps them get on with the other parts of their job. So great stuff. Now, I want to just, before we go into the question, I just want to hear a little bit about posture now. And kind of you know, what, what was that? What is that? Tell us just a little bit about that? Because I know, for me postures of problem. I know, for most people that have been sitting at desks all their lives, it's a problem. Tell me a little bit about that.

Matt Franklin 07:55
Okay, well, it started when I was on site, a client and hired me to do some editing on site at their location. And they put me in a literally a supply closet. So I was surrounded by dry erase markers and reams of paper in about a six by six room for a week of nine hour days, sitting there editing, and I called up my buddy who was in New York at the time, I live in Portland.

08:22
I said, Mike,

Matt Franklin 08:24
I gotta get out of this, I let's let's make an infomercial and get rich like the shamwow guy, because this was back when the shamwow was huge on TV. And he said, Well, you know, I got an idea for a posture improvement device. And I said, Okay, let's do it. I'll meet you in Chicago this weekend. So we flew to Chicago, I brought a bunch of elastic and Velcro. And we tried to make this goofy thing. And we decided to give up because it was just it. We didn't know what we were doing. And we didn't know how to construct it. Neither of us knew how to so there was no chance. So we went out drinking, which is what we do in Chicago. And by the time we had had maybe I don't know how many belts, we decided, you know what we can do this. So we used our kind of inebriation to give us the confidence, you know, let's make this happen. Okay, how do we find someone to do it? So essentially, what we did is we went to Alibaba, back when Alibaba was just first starting. And I looked for companies that I thought could develop something that would help your posture and since the sketches that we came up with kind of looked like a belt, I reached out to belt companies, and I said, Hey, can you and I sent them a scan of our sketch, to probably 50 different belt companies and there are 50 different belt manufacturers all over Asia, and a few of them got back to me. I ordered samples from maybe three or four of them, and one of them sent back a great sample and within Nine months of that trip to Chicago, we had a website up, we had our first orders, and it started selling. And that was basically how this happened. And then and that was, I believe, in 2009. And then we thought, Okay, well, you know, this is making us a little dough. Let's try to get on Shark Tank.

Andrew Stotz 10:18
So we seems like an impossible thing. It is,

Matt Franklin 10:22
it's a very difficult thing. And your odds are very low. And we went to a casting call in Dallas, Texas, and showed up there in the morning, and it was 90 degrees 90% humidity. And we got our wristbands and they said, Come back in three hours. So what do we do? Okay, a recurring theme, we went to the bar. And so we sat at the bar, and then we got back. And we all our inhibitions were gone, when we went in and did our two minute audition. And it turns out that the product, the guy, when he called us back, he didn't remember what our product was. But he remembered us. And so my bit of wisdom for people who are wanting to be on Shark Tank, become memorable, and prove to prove to the producers that you would be good TV, and let the product kind of be back in the background. Because if they think you're going to be good TV, then you can be there, your chances of getting on are a lot higher.

Andrew Stotz 11:23
That's great advice. And I think that that's probably just the opposite of what most people do is they're just so in love with their product that they want to take it and bring into the world. But the reality is that everybody wants to be entertained, then, you know, they want to invest in people and ideas, and they want to hear things that are quirky. And you know, all that. So yeah, great story. Yeah. And is the website still up now?

Matt Franklin 11:48
Yes, it's a posture. now.com.

Andrew Stotz 11:52
Okay, I'm going right there right now. No,

Matt Franklin 11:55
this is clear. We kind of gave up trying on this. I mean, it still brings us what we like to call a teacher salary. Yep. Which is actually a shameful term. I don't I should stop saying that because teachers should get paid way more. But yeah, we haven't changed the website in what, four or five years. And so I'm definitely not proud of it. And we do not spend any time on this business anymore.

Andrew Stotz 12:20
Yeah. But what we can see for those people that that I'm just looking at it right now. And it's, it's a strap around your arms and your back that helped to pull your shoulders back. It looks like and it's actually it's pretty smart. Because it's using the difference in your arms and in your back. So yeah, very cool. So Interesting. Interesting. I'm gonna do a little bit more looking at that. So. Okay, all right.

Matt Franklin 12:44
Well, if you want one, I'll send you one.

Andrew Stotz 12:47
Look at that. Look at that. All right, fantastic. Well, we may have to do a promo for that one, huh? All right. Well, now it's time to share your worst investment ever. And since no one ever goes into their worst investment thinking it will be. Tell us a bit about the circumstances leading up to it, and then tell us your story.

Matt Franklin 13:05
Okay, well, Andrew, as as I've told you, when we first met, I've made a lot of really, really dumb investments. So it was hard to come up with one. And so I came up with two that happened about the same time and that these two things were that I stayed in college, when I after I had gotten a job in the real world. And I didn't buy a house immediately when I started. When I started working. And this was back in 1996. I was kind of a late bloomer, I think I was 20. Yeah, I was 28 years old when I got my first real job because I had been spending time on the road playing music and doing dumb stuff and, and went back to college, and was majoring in economics. And, and, by the way, if you want to major in economics, you can learn all you need to know by reading a few books. And it's important to know that when I came into economics, I thought I was going to be learning immutable laws and real rules of how money works. But as it turns out, it's all a bunch of theory that has opposing viewpoints that can be taken as absolutely real. So there's two right answers to everything in economics. And well, and though I might not as an Austrian, I might not believe that there are two right answers. But there are two right answers that totally opposed themselves. Like in fact, Jerome Powell, not to get on a tangent, but this this week, he said, and I quote, or maybe it was last week, that gold is not a store of value. And gold has been a store of value since we started walking upright. And so so if our fed secretary will say that the Gold's not a store of value, then economics is kind of a wishy washy. You know, a morphus we thing. So anyway, so I'm in school majoring in economics, while working during the daytime, and I'm spending a lot of money, I'm continuing to defer my student loans, and I probably was still even taken out some loans to pay tuition, loans that by the way, I did not pay back until 2020. So which is ridiculous. And I and and I really got no value, no lasting value out of my last three or so years of school. And so the opportunity cost of going to school was great, because I was a spending money, but I was also wasting a lot of my time. And, and the money that I was wasting could have gone towards buying a house. And when I look back, that the first house that I bought, which was in 2002, if I would have purchased that house, when I was first entering the workforce, I would have made a cool 50 grand off that just for having a place to live in Portland in that part of town where I did buy that house rents were basically the same as a mortgage. So I kind of really looking back when I sold that house and realized Wait a minute, I could have purchased that house and I could have made an extra 50 grand tax free if I would have not given my money to my landlords for those interim years. And, and part of what what made me think about this, I listened to your, your podcast with with Christopher Elliot, where he was, he's a big proponent of not buying a house and and I thought, Oh, man, you know, as I was listening to your podcast that I was like, it was like watching a car chase. I'm

16:55
like, Oh, no, don't

Matt Franklin 16:55
say it. Don't say it. Oh, he said it, and that he had bought a house in cash. And that, you know, went down in value and odds like terrible, but then, you know, and now he's got a platform to tell people don't buy a house. And I just thought, wow, because my experience has been exactly 180 degree opposite. And now in today's age where we are at 5000 year lows of interest rates here in the United States. I don't know what it's like where you are, as far as homeownership and the 30 year mortgages. I know those are pretty rare internationally. Yeah, but But today, here in the States, you can now they're down in the twos, you can borrow hundreds of 1000s of dollars, that you would be probably spending any way to to rent a home if you're willing to live live someplace for five years and be kind of tied down. Yep. And, and by the time you know, 12 years from now, your mortgage payment is going to be worth half as much as it is today after inflation. Hmm. So it's like the only it's true rent control, because rents always go up. But if you get that locked in 30 year rate, you are taking advantage of a gift from the bank in ever decreasing in real terms, mortgage payments. And so I'm really kind of passionate about that. And a couple years ago, I started buying houses it went as I was learning about investing and kind of was getting really afraid of a bubble which I mean, knock on wood. The markets done great since I divested in 2017. But when I started buying houses, I just kept getting this feeling of, Okay, I don't have to deal with volatility. You know, maybe the rent might come late, maybe the, you know, I might have when the tenant moves out, I might have a month vacant, but I'm never having to deal with the, you know, Black Monday,

19:04
I'm never

Matt Franklin 19:05
I and I've got an insurable asset, that if it burns down, I get another one. And, and as that happened, as the more I got into this, the more I just looked back at 1996 and thought,

19:20
Oh, you know, what

Matt Franklin 19:20
did I do to myself, and, and it makes me it just makes me kick myself. And so when I talk to young people, I say, just please, please, even if you don't want to be tied down, tie yourself down, you're young enough that it's not going to kill you to stay in one place for four years, buy a house, and then in four years, the rents are going to catch up with your payment, you mean pretty much and in 80% of the geography of the United States, your mortgage is going to be less than rent. So just just go for and get started because that little kernel of wealth that you By when you're 25 is going to be worth a lot of dough when you're old and fat like I am.

Andrew Stotz 20:07
Hmm. Okay, so can you summarize what you learn from this experience?

Matt Franklin 20:12
Okay, what I learned is a question your beliefs, first and foremost, and look for someone who opposes them. Because if I would have searched out, like, can you get a job without a college education? If I would have found people and talk to them about, in fact, I know that my first boss didn't have a college degree. So why am I going after work? Going driving to school and going to take economics classes when my boss was going home and having martinis? So a, you know, question your opinions and seek Opposing Viewpoints? And, and, and and and use your intellectual curiosity find out and you may find out that you're wrong. Or you may find out that there is a different viewpoint that is smarter? Yep.

Andrew Stotz 21:03
Well, let me share a few things that I take away. First of all, you know, there's a few different episodes that kind of are pertinent here, one of the episode 348 with J money where we also talked about, you know, don't buy a home or a home can be, you know, really bad investment, or maybe the idea or listen to that one. Yeah. And, and that's where I also revealed that I'm 55, and I've been renting all my life. And which is got, you know, there's some interesting thoughts on that. And then, of course, there was Christopher Elliot, which was, so j money was Episode 348. Christopher Elliott was Episode 332. And then we had denied Iqbal that talked about, which is Episode 340. And he has a website called node degree.com. Counting,

Matt Franklin 21:49
I heard that one, have that guy,

Andrew Stotz 21:51
I know that that was really great. So first of all, you know, for the listeners out, there's a lot lot of information here. And I'm going to go through a couple of things that I would explain about this, kind of from my perspective, the first thing is that ultimately, the thing about investing is you got to do what's right for you. For me, it was right to not buy because I was also a foreigner in Thailand, when I first came. So as I was accumulating wealth, I had the option of buying a condo, which you're allowed to own, but I just didn't, I wasn't turned on by that so much. So that was part of the reason why so and then, but what I would say is that there's two things in your favorite remote, actually more than two. But let's just go through the things that are in your favorites in the US, the first thing is that almost no other country in the world does fixed 30 year mortgages. And American has, if you didn't get a mortgage for a house, in most other countries, it's going to be a floating rate mortgage, which means you're going to pay the prevailing interest rate. The second thing is almost very few countries around the world are able to have interest rates so low so long. And in fact, some everybody is ultimately affected by the US monetary policy and fiscal policy. But the point is, is that, you know, the US has kept the interest rate down super, super low. So basically, and so that's kind of a subsidy for you as a borrower if you can borrow at a super low rate. And my sister's a mortgage broker in massive in Maine. So I talked to her often about, you know, what the rates are, and one of my niece's just bought a house and, you know, you know, so you're talking about, and let's just say 322, point nine, you know, let's just say 3%, maybe 4% interest rate fixed for 30 years. Now, why? Why can they do a 30 year mortgage? Why do banks do 30 year mortgages, it doesn't make sense. The reason why banks don't do 30 year mortgages around the world is because they have deposits that are short term, you're putting money in deposit. And the average deposit is probably four months for a bank, maybe even three, because most deposits, just savings deposits and people are drawing those down. And then there's some time deposits. So you have very short banks get money that's very short term. If they were to lock in loans at a very long period of time at a low interest rate. They'd be in real trouble when the interest rate starts to rise, and they have to pay higher price for their money for the deposits, they would go into a loss. So who carries that loss? Well, the US government and that's Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which were created to create a secondary market for mortgages so that banks could sell those mortgages. And basically Fetty Freddie, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac basically take long term bonds, they issue long term bonds with a maturity of roughly 30 years, 25 years and then they match it with with the maturity of the mortgages, and so the only reason why America can continue to do this is because of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and TriCity the The massive cost that happened in the 2008 crisis, really, for the US government, and for the US taxpayer came at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, that there was a huge, huge loss there. So the point is, is that there's a subsidy, first in the interest rate, and second in the creation of 30 year bonds. I personally think that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac should be privatized, because I think that it would be better served to do that, but you don't have that. So as a borrower, you have that. Let's now imagine that you go down to the local supermarket, and you love milk, you're gonna drink milk for the rest of your life. So you say to the supermarket guy does Listen, can we just make a deal? I mean, I'm gonna buy milk for you for the next 30 years. Can we just make a deal that you know, what is a gallon of milk these days in America right now? What would you say it is roughly like five bucks or three bucks or 10? bucks? Yeah, okay, for four bucks, you just tell them that from now, until the next 30 years? Can we just make a deal where I buy milk from you for four bucks? And he says yes. Well, actually, what you've done is you've beaten inflation, because anybody else would have to buy that at five bucks and seven bucks and 10 bucks as it goes by. But because you've contracted this payment that's fixed, then you know, you're getting, you're getting such a deal, you're beating inflation, normally, it would rise. And so I think that is what you're talking about how fixed mortgage payment starts to beat inflation over time. And then you also mentioned about, it's an insurable asset. A stock is generally not an insurable asset, it could go down by 50%. And nobody's gonna, you know, do anything for you. So that's another point. And then finally, you've get tax deductions related to mortgage payments provided by the US. So there's so many incentives that are being that cost, ultimately, they cost the US government and the US taxpayer. But for you as an individual, this is a pretty great opportunity. So that's pretty much how I would kind of take away from that is to think about I rent, and I rent, because personally, I like it. I'm not a big fan of being a landlord. I just not interested in it, also. So that's another factor. And also, I know a lot about investing. And I have other options, also for my money. But for the typical American, I think your advice is probably not you know, what you've done. And what you've talked about is, and what you're talking about is, is pretty good. Anything you'd add to that?

Matt Franklin 27:24
Well, one of the first of all, excellent explanation about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, I mean, because yeah, it's an anomalous situation that we're in and who knows how long, it'll stay like this. But the other thing that I'd like to tell people when talking about home values, in some of the arguments against homeownership, they'll say, well, the stock market yields on an average, the s&p has been over the last 40 years, say 11%, or something like that. Housing values have only averaged in, you know, in x region 7%. But what that, but that argument doesn't take into account that you can buy a primary home for 5% down, which means that that 7% that you're making in appreciation on the overall price of the house, is 20 times that downpayment. So your cash in is basically a 20th of the overall value, and you're getting that 7% on a 20th of that value. So yes, you do need to make monthly payments, but that would have to make monthly payment anyway. So the leverage aspect of it, which and I, I tried to explain this to a neighbor of mine, and it didn't, it literally didn't sink in. But that leverage aspect makes it so that you're getting phenomenal returns even at 10% or 20%. Down. Hmm. So that's that's the other the kind of the hidden, the hidden multiplier, if you will.

Andrew Stotz 29:04
And there's another advantage you made me think of, I mean, we talked about dollar cost averaging in the stock market of a way of trying to get people to have a consistent way of investing. But you know, it's hard for people. Whereas, you know, people are not going to skip their monthly payment on their primary home at least. It's something that's probably not going to happen. So I would add in another benefit is what I would call forced investment where you really have locked yourself into a contract, where you're forced to invest in it. I think the other thing about property is that you know, it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily crash. Now, obviously, if you buy property at a peak of a cycle, it can crash. But if you look at property over a long period of time, like over a 30 year period, it's not something that's going to crash the way that a stock could crash and actually go to the stock could go to zero, technically, you know, if a company went bankrupt, and there's one last piece you know, my My mother's, you know, been retired for many years of my my dad. And when my dad passed away, I brought mom here about five years ago. And her best friend just had a situation where her husband and her decided, and they were getting close to 90. And they decided that in order to protect the cash that they needed, they decided to sell their primary home and move into an apartment. Now, that's a pretty, that's pretty tough move at, you know, at that age. Oh, yeah. And the truth is, is that, you know, my sister does reverse mortgages. And she really helped me to understand the value of that. But I think for a lot of people out there, once you get to be 7080, you know, that age, reverse mortgage market is a pretty interesting thing, where you can basically say, Look, I've got, I've got 300 $500,000 in this house, the only way I can get cash out of it, is sell it or borrow on it. But in fact, we know that I'm not going to live more than five or 10 years, and at that point, it will be sold. So allow myself is a reverse mortgage allows you to tap into that eventual equity, it's going to happen and get a monthly payment out of it. And it's a very innovative product, but you couldn't, if you end up renting all your life, you don't have that collateral or that asset that you can do a reverse mortgage with. Now, of course, if you're getting rich, or you're, you're able to buy annuities and things like that you can play around with it. But the reverse mortgage thing is a new innovation or relatively new innovation that can also help towards the end of the period of time that you're owning the house.

Matt Franklin 31:34
Absolutely. And those those products have gotten a lot better in the last decade or so. Because apparently, those reverse mortgages when they were first coming out, there were some pretty shady deals that had some pretty tenuous ending. So but overall, my understanding is that they've gotten a lot better. And it's a really valid way for people like those to stay in their home and, and draw back some of that equity.

Andrew Stotz 32:03
Yeah. So I'm going to give a little shout out also to the woman who has helped me with all of my blog posts from day one, her name is Stella and she is lives in Kenya. She's an amazing woman. And she's consistently worked on every single episode. In fact, we were just talking by video the other day, and I said, I think you're the woman who knows me more than anyone except my mom now because you've listened to everything I've said on every single episode. And we laugh, but my challenge to sell into myself is let's make sure we get a good list that we just went through of all the benefits of owning homes. And then we'll get that up in the show notes so that for the listeners out there, you can understand what those benefits are all about. Because you got to do what's right for you. All right. So based on what you've learned from this story, and what you continue to learn what one action would you recommend our listeners take to avoid suffering the same fate?

Matt Franklin 32:57
If you're a young person, buy a house figure out how to do it. I mean, it's I mean, we could we could talk about I've got a monopoly of advice. But really the main thing is, buy that house and start that compounding effect today.

Andrew Stotz 33:14
Beautiful advice, find that house, go down the bank, go to a bunch of different banks, find out what terms you can get. Yeah, beautiful. All right. Last question. What's your number one goal for the next 12 months?

Matt Franklin 33:28
My number one goal for the next 12 months would be with my goofy little podcast to help 10 entrepreneurs shave 10 years off their work life.

Andrew Stotz 33:42
That's exciting. And tell the listener again where they should go to get in on that? Because I'm sure some of our listeners, you know, want that. So would they go to rogue retirement? lounge.com? Yeah,

Matt Franklin 33:59
if you're if you're self employed, and you're interested in learning about retirement planning and retirement investing, yeah, go to or just search for rogue retirement lounge on your Apple podcast or any podcast

Andrew Stotz 34:12
platform. Beautiful. Alright, listeners, there you have it another story of loss to keep you winning. My number one goal for the next 12 months is to help you my listener to reduce risk in your life. So go to my worst investment ever.com right now and download the risk reduction checklist. And also, I would mention that I recently had asked some of my podcast guests, you know, how would they reduce risks in their life. And so my mom, one of my most recent episodes, I believe it was 353 goes through some of that advice. So go there and get it and I think I have a PDF download there that you can download also. So as we conclude, Matt, I want to thank you again for coming on the show and on behalf of a start to catch I mean, I hereby award you alumni status for turning your worst investment ever into your best teaching moment. And it's an alumni status is much better than a College Alumni status. Do you have any parting words for the audience?

Matt Franklin 35:17
I guess my last words would be, you know, if you believe you can't do it, or you believe you can do it, you're both right.

Andrew Stotz 35:25
Mm hmm. So let's believe that we can, ladies and gentlemen, that's a wrap on another great story to help us create, grow and protect our well fellow risk takers. This is your worst podcast hose Andrew Stotz saying. I'll see you on the upside.