Ep314: Mario Martinez Jr – Mergers and Acquisitions: Do Your Due Diligence First

Andrew Stotz 00:03
Hello fellow risk takers and welcome to my worst investment ever stories of loss to keep you winning. In our community. We know that to win in investing, you must take risks but to win big, you've got to reduce it. This episode is sponsored by a Stotz Academy's online course how to start building your wealth investing in the stock market. I wrote this course for those who want to go from feeling frustrated, intimidated, or overwhelmed by the stock market to becoming confident and in control of their financial future go to my worst investment ever.com slash deals to claim your discount. Now, fellow risk takers This is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz and I'm here with featured guests, Mario Martinez, Jr. Mario, are you ready to rock?

Mario Martinez Jr 00:53
I'm ready to do this. Andrew, thank

Andrew Stotz 00:54
you so much for having me. Great to have you on this show. So let me introduce you to the audience. Mario is the CEO and founder of vengreso. He spent 86 consecutive quarters in b2b sales and leadership. He is one of 20 sales influencers are invited to appear in the salesforce.com documentary film, The story of sales launched in 2018, and was named 2019, top 10 sales influencers by the modern sales magazine. Mario is a host of the popular the modern selling podcast Mario, take a minute and fill any further tidbits about your life.

Mario Martinez Jr 01:38
Cheese, that introduction was phenomenal. I don't I don't have much more. You said at all. I've been born and raised inside of sales, and have enjoyed every minute of it. I actually started out when I was in b2b sales at 19 years old working for a software company and have maintained the course ever since I left corporate about five years ago, this January, will be five years as a matter of fact, and I went out on my own for the very first time ever. And then about a year and a half into being out of my own. I did a multi way company merger. It was about eight companies that we merged together at one time, believe it or not. So it was a rough one. But it was lots of fun. And I think I learned a lot of stuff throughout that process. Mm hmm.

Andrew Stotz 02:32
And what would you say is your special sauce, your special skill in the area of sales.

Mario Martinez Jr 02:39
So for vengreso, what we focus on is squarely helping business owners, business leaders, sales reps and b2b sales teams, create more sales conversations and increase their sales revenue or pipeline if you would, as a result of creating sales conversations, but through digital selling techniques, so leveraging tools and platforms like LinkedIn video to be able to engage with their buyers. And we are a niche within prospecting. And we focus just on that element. And we've got some really amazing big name clients and all the way down to 1000s and 1000s of individuals. In fact, all in all, across all of our, our founders and co founders of the organization, and myself, we've had the privilege of educating over 140,000 professionals that all focus in on revenue.

Andrew Stotz 03:30
Wow. And you know, my audience a lot of my audience, because my area is finance, you know, a lot of financial people listen to this. And they don't necessarily know that much about sales. I can remember people ask me, why did you study in finance and universe? I said, Well, I looked at marketing, and I thought, anybody can do that. Just read a book, you know. And now I look back and I think of how naive I was. And I think about you know, there's marketing, there's advertising, there's prospecting, there's closing, there's after sales service, you know, there's so much to it. But I recently read this book by Jeb Blount called fanatical prospecting. And I think, really, it sounds like you know, your specialty is about that prospecting aspect or what do you mean by like, starting a conversation or starting that discussion?

Mario Martinez Jr 04:18
Yeah, so I know Jeb really well, great guy. We are in the same influencer circle, if you would. And jet Jeb really takes things from a perspective of, of leveraging the phone. And now he's doing a lot more. We related to you know, video and other digital related strategies. But we are just squarely focused on that element where the 800 pound gorilla in the marketplace, there's no one nearly comes close to as our size and reach and scope of what we do and, and that's really what we're focused on. So anybody who's a business owner who has their own business, whether they do you know, finance or investor maybe they're investing in companies. At the end of the day, nothing happens until someone's sell something, right? No matter which way you look at it, if you're investing into a company, if you have your own individual business, nothing happens until someone sells something. So every business owner is a salesperson. And the question is, is how do you grow your individual revenue. And if you're a salesperson listening in, or if you're an investor listening, and how is your portfolio companies going to grow their revenue from a sales and marketing perspective, so we're very much focused on look, today's modern buyer is digitally connected, socially engaged, mobile attached and video hungry. And never before and modern selling and buying history have four things aligned so perfectly. And that is our sales people or our business owners are also digitally connected, socially engaged, mobile attached, and also video producers. and align those four things together and parlay that you've got perfect alignment yet. So many individuals and business owners and salespeople are still struggling and are dissatisfied with the results that they're getting today. So we launched vengreso squarely to focus in on that particular problem. And our prediction was four years ago, that within five years, the world would have gone digital, everybody would be virtual, everybody would be remote. And all business would happen in b2b sales. Through a virtual mechanism, we were a little ahead of our time, and with course, we didn't predict the global pandemic. But nonetheless, it's here. It's staying, and it's not going away. Hmm. And so, before we get on to the main question of this podcast, maybe

Andrew Stotz 06:37
two other questions for me, the first one is, you know, for the listener out there, the amateur, someone like myself, don't know that much about sales. I want to sell more, I want to get better at sales. My first question for you is kind of like, what are some of the top one or two tips of things that you've learned that really are things that I or myself, or my listeners should focus on? And the second one is, for those people that are serious to say, I really need to attack this? How can they avail your services or find out more and get involved with what you're doing?

Mario Martinez Jr 07:14
So one or two tips are pretty much almost what I exactly said. And that is, you have to recognize that your buyer is digitally connected, socially engaged, mobile attached and video hungry. And if you're trying to reach out and create net new revenue or business into your, into your individual business, and you have not adapted to the modern buying techniques at which they buy, you will fail at you will be completely obsolete, and another 90 more days, it is not it is not swinging back, there is no analyst out there today, that says the market will swing back in the next 90 days, six months or even predictions within the year that we're gonna be able to meet each other face to face and shake hands and build relationships that way. No, it's gonna be done through virtual like this. And it's going to be here. And a lot of companies are finding a lot of great ways to be able to still survive and grow the business at a much lower margin and costs and not have to have corporate real estate. So that that's hopefully that answered the first question. What was the second question

Andrew Stotz 08:16
again? Second one is, what's the best way for people to follow you to contact you to understand and learn from you and potentially use your service.

Mario Martinez Jr 08:24
So there's a great website, if you're interested in you know, vengreso, and our thought leadership, we reach about 50 million sales and marketers on average per year. So vengreso.com, that's V and g r e. s o. But if you're looking specifically on some LinkedIn selling techniques and strategies, go to more sales. calls.com, more sales calls.com.

Andrew Stotz 08:48
Beautiful, beautiful. All right. Now it's time to share your worst investment ever. And since no one ever goes into their worst investment thinking it will be. Tell us a bit about the circumstances leading up to it and then tell us your story.

Mario Martinez Jr 09:01
Yeah, so it's a great question. And I think this is one of those stories that if you're listening in and you're a business owner, you're a partner in a firm, you've created a company, you you generally understand that if you're going into business with somebody else, you create a partnership, and pretty much overnight, you get married to somebody, and sometimes you don't know them that well and sometimes you know them super well. And both angles, whether you know them super well or you don't know them that well could have its major downsides. It doesn't really, in my opinion, it doesn't really matter. Some people you know, great, some people you don't know well, and even those that you think, you know, great, you may not be aligned. And so our story when we formed ingresso you know, I started out looking at how can I bridge together the world's largest modern sales training company that was massive, amassing together multiple companies underneath one corporate structure. And we started out and I actually pitched 14 different business leaders And their individual businesses to be merged under, I ended up getting 1010 partners in the firm that all said yes, I'm in like, the strategy makes sense. We're, I understand where you're going, let's do this, let's drive it, let's, let's, let's focus in on this element. And of those, those, those 10, two of them literally dropped out the day before we signed all the paperwork. And it was kind of a big blow. But it was kind of a good thing that actually happened. And it was hard for them to understand how we would ultimately make this work with so many cooks in the kitchen, right? And being able to bridge together and have focus and drive drive to a set of results. And we just just saw understand this. Well, you basically saying, Get rid of your company and bring

Andrew Stotz 10:47
your assets and yourself into one big company or what How are you? How are you describing that to them.

Mario Martinez Jr 10:54
So think of it like a private equity roll up. That's exactly the play of the move that we made, where you bring all the companies underneath one corporate umbrella, one corporate entity, everybody's assets, IP information, and revenue all rolled up into one centralized structure. And that's what we did, we rolled everything up into one centralized structure. And it ended up getting a little bit too scary for some people's blood. So they backed out, like, you know, the day before. And we ended up with eight folks. And it was interesting, because we now have four of our partners that are left in the firm, and others we exited out of the firm. And for various reasons, some made just good sense. And some were just up because it was a total disaster from a personality standpoint. So I think about like my worst investment. The as I think about all the things that we did, it was leading up to form this really large organization, this really large entity with a lot of reach and a lot of brand equity and a lot of ability to be able to take the market by storm. And when we took the market by storm, we had our big announcement it was a ginormous announcement like, Whoa, what just happened an eight way company merger like whoa, how are you going to do that. And it was a lot of fun. And we actually had this in place for a good couple of years. And then we started slowly peeling off individuals, because after the course of time, you just realize we're never going to be able to make this work. We just had too many differences from that perspective. So we had to exit partners from the firm. And I think people listening in have either if they've been through an exit, they understand that it could be super easy to be able to make the decision everybody understands we got to go separate ways. And y'all still remain friends. Or it can go the exact opposite extreme, which is nobody remains friends and you hate each other at the end. And and and we had a little both. So with that in mind it being a business owner and rolling up such a large project, that investment I tell you, I would never do it again, that's for sure. Not that large of a scale. It was a lot of work and and to be fair and honest, you can't see but I got a big bald spot in the back of my head right here. And I'm only 43. So the hair, the hair loss, and I had actually black hair before I started my receding hairline was about an inch inch closer five years ago,

Andrew Stotz 13:17
he looked pretty cool, then it was a good idea.

Mario Martinez Jr 13:23
Yeah, it was the right look then. But now it was a major, it was a massive undertaking, really massive undertaking. And it took a lot of energy. And I mean, we're talking about eight boulders that you have to roll up a hill all the same time. And everybody's got to push with the same force at the same speed with the same passion with the same desire. And that is very difficult.

Andrew Stotz 13:49
I mean, it already seems like you know, different, particularly what you're talking about is businesses that are built on people's personalities. You know, salespeople are very confident their emotion. You know, one thing about sales, I say when people ask me about this difference between different jobs and stuff as like, sales is just one of those few jobs, where it's an emotional commitment. Yeah. And you know, if you're an accountant, working in office or bookkeeper, there's no emotional commitment to what you're doing every day. But with sales, there's an emotional rollercoaster that you have to go through. Which just also means that certain types of people that are confident people that can handle that, and those are the hardest problems people tried to bring together just one question about it is what Where did you possibly come up with this idea that bringing all these things together would be you know, a big thing a good thing to do? Not not saying that it's bad, but it's just a question is Where did you come up with this idea?

Mario Martinez Jr 14:52
So it's really a common practice done in the private equity world, right? A lot of PE s roll up a lot of companies and some of their portfolios are you know, could be 20 companies strong, and then they put them all together. There's one central structure, they take that structure, they control the management, the leadership, the all the money funnels through, they take the IP, they slice and dice to figure out what's the best way they skin that skin, the fat off of each company. And then all of a sudden, now they've got, you know, a whole corporate governance structure and everything and they trickle that back down. So I had never done one before. Personally, my entire career was spent inside of corporate my last stop as a VP of sales for a technology sales organization. And I came up with the idea, because as I looked at the marketplace, this particular niche that we are in, which is digital selling now called modern selling, right, so this modern selling component, there was no 800 pound gorilla. So if you looked at the sales training space as a whole, across the globe, it's a ginormous market, it's a billions of dollars have spent in training $3.5 billion in sales training that is spent, but most of it was spent from sales reps, picking up the phone and saying hello to the clothes. And so very few people focused in on the prospecting piece. But believe it or not, Andrew, statistics show that 60 to 70 plus percent of sellers and business owners report that the single hardest thing about owning a business, or managing a sales territory, is creating the first conversation. And so funny isn't maybe the hardest thing about selling or producing revenue, has the fewest dollars spent in that particular segment, because people just kind of expect that you're going to be able to do it. So I came up with the idea. And I married it. And I was an advisor to a startup company that I had invested in that ended up going belly up, which is a totally different story. And I knew the some of the investors and some of the folks that they use to help them really bring to life, this entire organization. And I called up one of the one of the investor guys. And I said, Hey, I got this crazy idea. I'm thinking about really bringing together a bunch of companies to essentially form the largest one so that we can really own and dominate the industry. And we are perfect play for one of the big sales training companies or a technology company to gobble us up down the road in five years, because I want to have an exit in five years. Is that possible? And he said, Absolutely. Private Equity companies do it all the time. And then he went through the process. And I said, Great, you validated what I thought. And now I want to do it on a smaller scale. And that's the what we ended up doing.

Andrew Stotz 17:42
So before we get into the lessons that you learned from this experience, maybe you can just highlight some of the pain of of this.

Mario Martinez Jr 17:52
Great question. You know, there's so many things that I learned in terms of merging all these different companies together, but the one that really comes to mind at the forefront of all of these things, was really around people. So if you think about like my worst investment ever, you always say you invest in your people invest in people, and that is true 100%. But you also need to know when it's time to not invest in that relationship, and not invest in that person. And I think those are some of the challenges that we had in the organization when bringing everything together was not just the the partner but it was also their personnel that came into the organization, a different way of being led a different way of thinking about the market, a different perspective on the vision of where we were going. And that's Uber critical when you do a merger of companies, every single partner or stakeholder has to have the end vision in mind. And if the moment that that envision is removed off of their pathway, is the moment that you begin to run into problems, because now it becomes the I me, I don't want this. I don't like this. I don't feel this way. This is not working for me. Right, as opposed to what's the end goal and what's the end and the end state here. And I'll give you some specific examples of that particular of some of the things that have shaped my thinking about this. There are if you lay out if you talk to any marketer, cmo from any large organization down to the individual marketing thought influencer, there are 1 million ways by which you can go to market and market different things for different purposes. There generally is never one right answer. Right. And that was one of the challenges as you brought together different companies with who all had marketed their businesses different ways, was that whenever someone didn't like something, they would throw the towel in and they would, you know, be angry about it and they would be upset about it. And they would say that so and so doesn't know what they're doing and then you'd have all the cheeky talk going on in the background of trying to really work people to get onto their sides so that you can have call a vote. And it just became very toxic, right? That type of behavior, that type of activities that would take place. And then what ended up happening is, other partners began having to manage relationship problems or feelings and perspectives. And in reality, when you brought things together, what one of the things that we did was, I said, Hey, everybody who's in this organization, when you come on board, I want to know, what role do you want to be when you in this new organization. So as an example, Bernie borgess had a content marketing agency, he's one of our founders of the company, a very successful content marketing agency said I want to be the CMO. Great, anybody else will be the CMO? Nope, no armwrestling over that you own that. Now you own all of marketing, you get to make those decisions. But then what happens is, is someone owns that particular swim lane, as an owner, you used to own it, as a business owner used to own that. And so now when somebody else has that swim lane, and they're the only ones in that swim lane, and they're making decisions, and you're like, this is not right, and the person says, Hey, I hear you, thank you for telling me, we're gonna run this play. And they're like, no, and they keep doing that over and over and over and over again. Now, that becomes very toxic. And so the investment is that your job is trying to bring that person along, bring that person along, bring that person along, and it ends up getting to the point where, what the mistake that I made as a leader was,

21:36
you know, you

Mario Martinez Jr 21:36
have that gut, the gut feeling like, this is not going to work. But then you hold on to it, and another month goes by and another month, and next thing you know it, you're a year or two years into it on every month or every quarter, you're now managing through some sort of drama in the organization. And you should have called it quits 12 months ago. Hmm. Because you knew in your gut, and so did everyone else that it wasn't the right fit. Yep. And, and that's that those are some of the challenges when in terms of investment, it's like, you always talk about invest in your people. But there is a point in time, where you know, in your gut, this is probably not going in the right direction, and you got to be swift about making change.

Andrew Stotz 22:22
So let's discuss what lessons did you learn from this? Think about the people that are out there right now, in their gut, they know that this person or this situation, they've got to change, but they're thinking, Man, maybe it'll work it out. And, you know, let's give it some time.

Mario Martinez Jr 22:41
Yeah, so early on, we had to do a lot of, and I wouldn't change if I if I did this, again, I would, I would still do this you do you get when you when you build a new company, and you're and you bring on a new partner, especially those that you weren't intimately familiar with, it takes a little bit of time before you get to know know them really and trust them and, and really understand what makes them tick and those types of things. I mean, that doesn't happen overnight. So there is that element that you got to put some time into it. And generally, I'm going to guess you're going to be there around six months, getting someone getting to know that individual and knowing what works and what doesn't work. beyond that. Now you get to the point of if you've got swim lanes, and you've defined those swim lanes, and you've given input to something. And this happened a lot I gave input to something. And they an individual said now that's I don't I don't agree with that. I don't think that's the right way to do it. The hardest thing to do when you're especially an owner of the company is bite that lip. Ah, bite that lip and say, All right, I'm gonna keep on marching in my lane, and keep on going and trust that the person ultimately will succeed. But if they fail, just like a marriage, you never do. I told you so. Right, you can't do that you got to be there as a partner to pick that person up inside the business. So you know, the lessons that I learned early on, were don't hold on to things for an extended period of time, if you're there and a year from now. And you brought together multiple people you brought in a partner, and that relationship is getting is just not improving. And the same thing that is that you've talked about from month number one, all the way through whatever time period iraq continues to come up, it's time to say have that conversation. Look, you I want to be friends with you, you know, from now until the future, but I need to know in your heart of hearts. Do you think this is the right place for you? And you've got to ask that bold, direct question and get what's inside of their perspective and their mind to for you to be able to come to some sort of place. And that's really the key is when you get to that point where it's like a bold, you're asking that bold question. Someone says you know, I'm really struggling. I thought so. So I'm not sure if this is a good spot for you and You're not sure if it's a good spot for you, we probably should think about some alternative arrangements. And that's a different type of conversation, then that's it, I've had it, I'm walking out, I don't want any part of this anymore. And now you're at odds with each other. Now you got legal involved. Now you got lawyers, and you know, everybody looking out for their own interest. And you did this to me. So you got to get to that point where you don't have the I'm walking out. But you do have the conversations around, do you think this is a good fit for you?

Andrew Stotz 25:33
So let me summarize a few things that I take away from it that that last thing you just said about that kind of that big confrontation and just blow up and then it's all over? One of the things that's interesting, I moved to Thailand 29 years ago, so I've spent more of my life living in Thailand that I did in the US. And confrontation is not allowed in Thai culture. And that's just the opposite of the US where confrontation is actually rewarded. And it is the way that we resolve things in a lot of cases. So when you're operating in an environment where there can be no confrontation, it all of a sudden changes the way you look at it, like just think about the average police encounter in Thailand, the police are gonna come up slowly. Now, of course, there's bad police, but just a normal police encounter. They're not going to escalate. But if you look at American police, immediately they escalate into confrontation. It's just like always,

Mario Martinez Jr 26:31
posture posturing always.

Andrew Stotz 26:33
Yeah. And and so what I've learned, then, when I went back to America, I kind of had, you know, visiting, I have culture shock, because that's like, why, why why escalate that. And I look at a lot of situations in business where I decided not to escalate and it turned out that we could work it out. And so I always tried to do non escalation. So that's the first thing that I take away. The second thing is, this is a there's a great strategist, philosopher and general warrior, von Clausewitz, and he said, in war, during times of war, simple, things become difficult and difficult, things become impossible. And you did a very difficult thing. By bringing all of these companies together all these individuals together. And I know in my life now in business, I'm trying to do simple, more simple things. I'm not saying don't do hard things. But just remember that difficult or complicated things can be very hard to do. And that brings me to the next point. And that is being a financial guy. I've seen all kinds of different ways that companies have combined and done different things. In fact, I did a study a while ago, where I analyzed 5000, m&a deals, mergers and acquisitions. And I looked at a lot of different things. But one of the things that's pertinent to this discussion is I looked at the return on invested capital, so a measure of return. And I asked the question, is the buying companies return on invested capital increase or decrease as a result of this acquisition or combination? The answer that is 78% of the time, within three to five months, their return on invested capital, decreased, almost 80% of the time, their returns decrease, what does that tell you? It means that synergies and all those things that they say are going to happen, didn't actually happen. And that raises a potent issue. And it's been a foundation in my own business. And one of the businesses here coffee works in Thailand, is organic growth can be really seductive, but it's very difficult to make it work really well. And so I just think, and just because PE guys are rolling them up, doesn't mean it works, either. I cuz I know, from the world of finance, that we have survivorship bias, where we have a small number that actually did work really well. And they went and listed on the stock market, it was amazing. But for every one of those, there's 1000, pe guys that are trying to bring all these things together, and then they end up with very little or much less than what So my point is just because experts are doing it doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do or that it's going to work for you doesn't mean it's not, but keep that in mind. Anything you'd add to that. Yeah, you know,

Mario Martinez Jr 29:32
the only thing I would say is you're right, absolutely right. I definitely wouldn't do 10 companies all over again like that. That was that was too much of my life taken out of me. And it was very hard. And it actually ended up being it was started at 10 and then went to eight and so that was very hard. But what I would say is it was a very good model to advance to where we want it to go and I would absolutely repeat the model probably so On a slightly smaller scale, like six companies, probably what I would do, I would dial it back just just a couple hair, a couple companies less. But what I would do is also be more selective. And I think that's one of the powers of private equity companies do is they're really doing interviewing and they're they're understanding and assessing the power what an individual has the infrastructure that this that that the, you know, the base, the customer, the revenues, so I probably would do more due diligence to be able to understand who were the better fits, and then prioritize those fits to be able to make sure we brought those people in first? And would you do it,

Andrew Stotz 30:33
like one after another and let you digest one? Or would you go and do it all at once again, like you did, how from your experience. For me personally,

Mario Martinez Jr 30:44
I would definitely do it all at once, because you gained so many more powerful synergies by everybody joining in on the race together, and really understanding and buying in on that particular vision and where they're going. And that's, that's what I would do, I would do it on a smaller scale. And I would do more due diligence to figure out who was the best partner for me, and or the best partner for that individual and what they brought to the table. And I probably have a different series of questions that I would roll out with in terms of, and then not, not allow the excitement and the newness to come along. And everybody who's still with me, Kurt shaver, viveka von Rosen, Bernie borgess, myself, and then we've got some other partners that are still within the firm that are that are smaller partners, Junior partners, if you would, everybody is on the gravy train, and we have bought in Division from day one. And we're still here crankin and we're having a lot of fun doing it. And that's that's the partnership that you're looking for is those that want to have fun. Got it.

Andrew Stotz 31:43
So based upon what you learned from this story, and what you continue to learn, what one action would you recommend our listeners take to avoid suffering the same fate?

Mario Martinez Jr 31:54
Know the gut, follow the gut. And be willing to ask the question, the bold question, do you think this is the right thing for you write to your partner. And if they were a fellow partner in the firm, most of us are afraid to ask that question. We kind of want to just allow it to naturally come out. But boy, you can save a lot of pain and heartache if you just have honest communication. But you know, in the gut, you know, in that gut, if it's probably going to work, and most of us have got good gut intuition. And you just got to pay attention to that.

Andrew Stotz 32:33
Last question, what's your number one goal for the next 12 months?

Mario Martinez Jr 32:37
number one goal for the next 12 months as we are doubling in size. For vengreso. We're fortunate that our business has not been impacted from the COVID situation because of what we teach we obviously digital selling techniques. The whole world, unfortunately, is digital. So I hope that we will, we will double the organization. But I'm also very focused on doubling the organization with a very focused niche. And that is I've made it my pride and joy along with the rest of my co founders to really focus in on underrepresented groups, both on growth from an employee base. And so we hire right now we're at about 79% of our total employee population is of ethnic background and 59% of that 79% is of Latino descent. So we're very, very proud of that. So my goal is to double the growth and to maintain our focus with the niche that we are trying to recruit into the organization. Fantastic.

Andrew Stotz 33:36
Can't wait to hear from you. 12 months from now. All right,

33:39
wait to tell you.

Andrew Stotz 33:40
Yes, listeners there you have it another story of loss to keep you winning Remember to go to my worst investment ever.com slash deals to claim your discount on my how to start building your wealth investing in the stock market course. As we conclude, Mario, I want to thank you again for coming on the show. And on behalf of a Stotz Academy, I hereby award you alumni status for turning your worst investment ever into your best teaching moment. Do you have any parting words for the audience?

Mario Martinez Jr 34:11
My parting words would be have fun, just have fun.

Andrew Stotz 34:16
Amen. Have fun ladies and gentlemen. And that's a wrap on another great story to help us create grow and most importantly protect our well fellow risk takers. This is your worst podcast host Andrew Stotz saying. I'll see you on the upside.